The Biocentric Universe

[CraigS]

Lanza says:

Space and time, not proteins and neurons, hold the answer to the problem of consciousness. When we consider the nerve impulses entering the brain, we realize that they are not woven together automatically, any more than the information is inside a computer. Our thoughts have an order, not of themselves, but because the mind generates the spatio-temporal relationships involved in every experience. We can never have any experience that does not conform to these relationships, for they are the modes of animal logic that mold sensations into objects.

Now this is the bit I can relate to a little better.

Its always struck me as a little (err .. lot) strange that we measure time through our memories of past experiences. If we had no memory, then we'd have no concept of passing time. So there is something about how our mind has come together, that enables us to perceive time. Perhaps our 'operating system' which has emerged, has become optimised around this very function.

It would be no big surprise then, that we would find it hard to pin down what time actually is .. especially if it only exists because we have an 'internal clock' ticking the 'CPU' over, of which we are entirely unconscious about. Ie: time has been 'invented' by our minds, by virtue of how our brains fundamentally operate.

I wonder whether any other animal brain perceives time ? Or are we the only ones ?

Lanza goes on ..

It would be erroneous, therefore, to conceive of the mind as existing in space and time before this process, as existing in the circuitry of the brain before the understanding posits in it a spatio-temporal order. The situation, as we have seen, is like playing a CD—the information leaps into three-dimensional sound, and in that way, and in that way only, does the music indeed exist.

Hmmm … its logical, but I don't much like this bit …. its a bit unnecessary, and I get a whiff of predestination in these words.

Cheers

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by bojan

Whose consciousness? Yours or mine?

See my latest post. You are more than welcome to exclude yourself from this … it is very airy-fairy.
Come to think of it, I probably will, eventually, also.

Cheers

[bojan]

It's a brain-gymnastic... and as long as someone doesn't take it too seriously, it's OK.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by bojan

It's a brain-gymnastic... and as long as someone doesn't take it too seriously, it's OK.

Ah .. geeezz .. steady on there fella … I am serious kinda guy !!

(Just kidding !)

I wouldn't want to take real science seriously either !!
(For all the same reasons !!)


Cheers

[avandonk]

Sheldrake postulated a morphorgenic field. A bit like the Aborigines belief in myths in Australia where all objects have a 'field' or 'spirit'.

The only mechanism I can possibly postulate is quantum entanglement.

I hardly think that the atoms that make up my body influence me to do anything.

You and I are just a set of memories stored in your brain and nervous system. When you die that is it! This is what humans fear to really face.

Where does the information go when you die? I think it is the same place that all dead hard drives send their information. Calculator heaven!

Just google Kryten or Red Dwarf

Bert

[CraigS]

Hi Bert;
I've been trying to answer some of my own questions about all this today …

I agree that we just seem to be the product of stored memories. All functions, including consciousness itself, seem to have memories of some form or another, at their core.

But why is that ? What is a memory ? What is more fundamental than memory ? It seems to me, that memories are kind of events embedded in some kind of process (you mention our brain/nervous systems), which get ordered, then manifest themselves, somehow, into something like consciousness. But the order is important. More fundamental than memories, seems to be an all encompassing mechanism for establishing the sequences of those memories. Sequencing implies time.

I mention I've been snooping around and doing some reading today. I found a very interesting article about our circadian clocking mechanism and they're only just starting to figure out how it works. It is intrinsically interwoven into our nervous sensory perception framework. It seems that it maybe centred within the brain’s suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN). They've also found that circadian clocks in multiple brain regions, and many peripheral tissues such as the liver and kidneys. The retina's clocks can also function completely independently when it comes to visual processing.

It seems that we are beings fundamentally geared as clocks .. to keep track of one thing .. time !

Are we the embodiment of a delusion we call time ?

Cheers

[avandonk]

I have seen very intelligent people become totally bewildered as their memory failed them. They at best were automatons near their end. We are our memories!

Bert

[CraigS]

Here's another brain-bender (pardon the pun).

They've found that the eye is used as an input by the brain, to set the internal circadian clock. And this happens even if the eye is unable from birth to detect object, prey, etc (ie 'normal' base visual functions) ..

This interaction between the eye and the brain, seems to be at the base of the behavioural development tree, and is hard-wired and continues to develop into adult-typical patterns, even in the absence of 'normal environmental inputs' into our nervous systems ! (Ie: vision).

Amazing. But the point I'd like to make is that yet again, this capability would seem to be right at the bottom of the basic functionality of mammal behaviour .. and once again it is time specific (ie: circadian clocking)!

Cheers

[avandonk]

As someone who can remember when he was two like yesterday craig but has a problem remembering yesterdays boring bits. I can see your point.

I have a near photographic memory. It got through my degrees and work as I could just call up the page of the text at will. It is not fair as now everybody can do this with google!

I would be very careful of any biological theory of anything as we are a product of our environment not the dominant force we think we are.

Our environment has as much awareness of us as it has of the spider that wefts it's web to catch onother insect. If god really worries about sparrows does he worry about insects.
Many years ago I asked my teacher after he told me that god worries about every sparrow that falls so therefore you are far more important.
I said you are talking absolute crap! You just gave me six cuts for breaking some rule I did not even know about!

Years later at a reunion I told him I will not beat the crap out of you as I am more merciful than you. If I hear you touched one of my brothers You are dead meat!. The look of fear on his usual smug face was a wonder to behold. I gave him a little smack that broke his nose to remind him that we all grow up and have no intention of recriminations. Just like THEM!

Bert

[CraigS]

Yep. I guess my point was more suggesting that our pre-occupation with time might just be unique to us. The 'us' now seems to be more accurately .. 'mammals'.

I wouldn't suggest there's anything special about us either. (Unlike what I get from Mr Lanza).

But is time of our own making ?
Cheers

PS: It seems we share the same experience with the cane ! I wouldn't mind betting we are not alone in that regard, either ! I have other acquaintances who share the photographic memory thing, also. I envy them.

[avandonk]

I have come to the obvious conclusion Craig that the Universe has produced a very complex variation of life for a very good reason. I am a recovering alcoholic trying to erase memories that are as vivid as yesterday. Some have been erased. Only to come back as clear as ever.

PTSD is memories stored in times of extreme stress. It is a survival program. Do not do this again!

Unfortunately people with this problem relive these experiences over and over again.

The human mind is the last frontier. Beware of mine!

Bert

[CraigS]

Hmm … sorry for bringin' back the memories, Bert ..

Feel free to delete any posts you'd like to.
(I'll do likewise with mine).

Computers and messaging boards are good like that .. one can erase the record.

Cheers

[bojan]

Our consciousness has nothing to do with existence of time - time exists as independent entity from us (just imagine, all those fossils... they cant be creation of our mind )
However, our consciousness (memory) operates sequentially - that means the memory are stored with more or less accurate "time stamps" and IMO this is crucial for us to function as conscious beings.

BTW, Bert, I also used to have photographic memory in high school and later on uni.. however this ability weakened quite a bit (maybe I don't exercise it enough) and the problem I have now (sometimes) is, I instinctively rely on my photographic memory, but the images I invoke later are blurred... It was pretty hard to switch to pencil and paper, but I simply had to

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by bojan

Our consciousness has nothing to do with existence of time - time exists as independent entity from us (just imagine, all those fossils... they cant be creation of our mind )

This is a very bold assertion, bojan.
How do you know that time is independent of our consciousness ?
Where is your test for this ? How do you dissociate yourself (or other human consciousness) from the picture in order to make this bold assertion?

Fossils ??? These are objects for which we have devised a theory to explain their presence, and time is at the core of it. If it wasn't there, the observation would have no meaning.

I'd rather take the position of "I haven't got the foggiest idea of what time is, and whether or not, it is independent of our consciousness".

Originally Posted by bojan

However, our consciousness (memory) operates sequentially - that means the memory are stored with more or less accurate "time stamps" and IMO this is crucial for us to function as conscious beings.

Yep. I can get that.

[avandonk]

Do not ever feel that you have upset me. I would not say these things here if I was at all 'fragile'.


My transgressions are to numerous to e numerate.


My PM is still good.

Bert

[avandonk]

My bosses at CSIRO sent me to a drug alcohol psychologist after confronting me with about fourteen people at a 'meeting ' they called to deal with me.

This is the pathetic account of their intelligence.

They made two mistakes.

One. They put me at the head of the table.
Two. They did not have an agenda apart from trying to scare me.


After about a microsecond on entering the room I realized what these idiots were up to.

I told them if you don't have anything better to do I am leaving.

Some idiot said you cannot leave.

I said 'Which one of you heroes is going to stop me?'

After I made sure that I was there on my goodwill I listened to their crap

I will not bore you with the litany of my sins but I reackon I am up with the best!


I left this room with total contempt for every person in the room.

The psychologist that cost CSIRO a heap of money that was paid to sort me out said after six hours of 'therapy' or was that 'labelling''. Bert you are the most rational intelligent person I have ever met! My reply was 'you are a drug alcohol councillor, I am just the best of a bad lot'.

She told me that her report would not be well accepted by your management. She also said 'get out of there the environment is toxic'.

I 'retired' at 55 a few months later.


Bert

[bojan]

Originally Posted by CraigS

This is a very bold assertion, bojan.
How do you know that time is independent of our consciousness ?
Where is your test for this ? How do you dissociate yourself (or other human consciousness) from the picture in order to make this bold assertion?

well, somebody said that earlier - our test instruments, our photographs, our audio or video tapes... all of them also record the events with (much
more accurate) time stamps. Are they more conscious than you and/or me?
Everyone (even you mate) can check them and their data content and you would be able to find (consistently) the same things I would: the same records, the same timing.

Ergo, time is independent from our consciousness.
Of course, the opposite is not true.

[avandonk]

Under great stress many people say time is very much slower. It is about perception not time dilation. It is a survival mechanism that has a long term cost.

If I drill into one of your teeth or play with your wobbly bits for a given time. Which seems longer?

Bert

[bojan]

Yep, "perception" of reality it the word...
It should not be mixed with "real" reality (sometimes not easy to figure it out)... which exists regardless of our perception.

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by bojan

well, somebody said that earlier - our test instruments, our photographs, our audio or video tapes... all of them also record the events with (much
more accurate) time stamps. Are they more conscious than you and/or me?
Everyone (even you mate) can check them and their data content and you would be able to find (consistently) the same things I would: the same records, the same timing.

Ergo, time is independent from our consciousness.
Of course, the opposite is not true.

At the risk of being seen defending what is purely a perspective, (to me), and is thus just like a different view on things, that holds nothing much more than some curiosity value, I'll offer the following for you consideration …

Consider that all of the devices you just mentioned … cameras, video recorders, 'test' instruments, (I presume this means anything with the ability to associate a time stamp with an event), are man made. It is possible that the only way our brains can make any sense of events occurring around us, is to compose real-time images, into a sequence of events which has an order (of the past .. oldest, older, old, close-to-the-present), in them. Then, it is no surprise that we have intentionally engineered these machines to reproduce this order (so we can make sense of them).

Take the video machine … would the movie make any sense if the end was at the beginning, the middle at the start and the beginning at the end ? Our perception of 'what makes sense' always involves a critical temporal order.

The 'time stamping' is derived from our understanding of time. Our need to measure time, has given rise to the clock mechanism itself, which is the crucial element of the video/camera etc. Our own metabolism is controlled by the same process. This would be evidence that timing/time stamping is fundamental to our own makeup and we replicate it over and over in everything we do and perceive with our senses.

Every human has this need built into them, which is why everyone will agree with what you say. But this is agreement by consensus. It is only one type of reality .. and it is not physical reality.

If the universe exists as just a bunch of events, who says anything other than us pulls those events into a sequence which we can understand? When (& if) we do this, we are left with a real dilemma to explain how this sequence comes about, courtesy of nature external to us.

I cannot see any way to divorce ourselves from our own need to perceive our environment in this way. So, from that perspective, this may all be a moot point and serves only as a reminder to us, that time is purely a construct made by us to understand stuff.

That being said, neither perspective can be ruled out as a possibility. The other possibility .. ie: time existing in nature, (as a dimension or whatever), cannot be 'independently' tested, either.

Incidentally, all of this provides the fertive playground of pseudoscientists. Eg: from our own pseudoscience distinctions:

(1) The non observation of a prediction made by science is proof that the science is wrong.
(2) An anomaly proves the science is wrong.
(3) Recitation of conspiracy theories against science.

Lets also not become pseudoscientists by arguing against a possibility ..

Cheers