Look after your people!

[astroron (Ron)]

When I was in SCAS on the Sunshine Coast we where insured for well over Ten Years without a single claim,then they trippled the premiums of all the Astronomical societies,and upto that time I had never heard about one claim against an insurance company by any Astro society or club.
What a Rip Off
This is the first claim I have heard since I have been doing Astronomy, which is over 25 years,and they want to put the premiums up
Cheers

[Amunous (Michael)]

what you say may well be common sense, but the law might have other ideas.

If you like to sue people at the drop of a hat just because the law says that you can.. you might find yourself blacklisted from party's, and rightly so. Who would want to invite someone that sue's because they are a moron, just because they have the legal right to?

[firstlight (Tony)]

Originally Posted by astroron

When I was in SCAS on the Sunshine Coast we where insured for well over Ten Years without a single claim,then they trippled the premiums of all the Astronomical societies,and upto that time I had never heard about one claim against an insurance company by any Astro society or club.
What a Rip Off
This is the first claim I have heard since I have been doing Astronomy, which is over 25 years,and they want to put the premiums up
Cheers

Those insurance hikes came about because a bunch of insurers went to the wall for dodgy practices and the remainder took advantage of it with the logic that because they were bad managers we, the public, have to pay. SCAS went to the wall because if incredible premium hikes, and I think it was only a year later that the astronomical community organised to get reasonable cover/premiums... Very sad Ron, that we lost one of our sister clubs. Another aside to this was that events as the SPSP and the Queensland Astrofest were specifically excluded from insurance, something that was a shock to us on the committee as we thought thast as a club event (multiple clubs at that), we would have been covered... very sobering that every member on that committee would have been personally liable for any incident. Add to that we ensure that it is as dark as possible and than leave mostly dark coloured equipment setup around the place.

Couple of points made is that after only one claim the premiums are going to be hiked substantially... perhaps a delegation should once again negotiate on behalf of the astronomy clubs for a better result (I'm not volunteering).

Second point is that it is an astronomy viewing night so you should expect it to be dark. This is true, but the public doesn't think that way and as David points out that if your dark sky policy compromises safety, you may be held responsible. On thing comes to mind is if it is a public event, is it absolutely neccessary to have total blackout? Surely you are not trying to show someone the fine detail of the Horsehead Nebula? Our club has been doing our public nights at Mt Coot-tha Lookout for about 15 or 16 years. The only thing we find that public are able to enjoy are views of the Moon, planets, maybe some open and globular clusters and perhaps some double stars. The place in not suitable for serious observing, and why should it be? We show the public stuff big and bright flashy because that is what gets their attention, and if they develop an interest, then they can search for the faint fuzzies that we find so interesting in the field and on camp after they join a club. How many people have shown an object like the Swan Nebula to a newbie from a surban site and got a "Wow!"?

The last thing that I have in mind is that it seems that people are saying that the person was recklessly running around in the dark up and down stairs. I still don't know the details but from what I have read is that there was not even a handrail prior to the incident, and no indication where the stair edge was. Surely if you were just invited to look at the 1st quarter Moon, stepping away from the scope and found that stairs were nearby and down you went. Imagine you have a broken leg or a knee injury from this incident, suddenly you can't work, and when you point out that here was a saftey issue with the positioning of the stairs and that you couldn't see it because it was not indicated, surely you can't say "Tough, its a viewing night, you should know it's going to be dark"?

Again, we don't know the circumstances, so we can't say whether the claim was justified or not, but the ony person that can claim is a person from the public and not neccessarily someone that is educated in our hobby as we are.

[Amunous (Michael)]

The last thing that I have in mind is that it seems that people are saying that the person was recklessly running around in the dark up and down stairs.

The running down the stairs was information given to us in a previous post.

I still don't know the details but from what I have read is that there was not even a handrail prior to the incident, and no indication where the stair edge was. Surely if you were just invited to look at the 1st quarter Moon, stepping away from the scope and found that stairs were nearby and down you went. Imagine you have a broken leg or a knee injury from this incident, suddenly you can't work, and when you point out that here was a saftey issue with the positioning of the stairs and that you couldn't see it because it was not indicated, surely you can't say "Tough, its a viewing night, you should know it's going to be dark"?

I completely agree with that situation and rightly so. Like i said accidents happen and thats why we have insur *cough* assurance..

[firstlight (Tony)]

Originally Posted by Amunous

The running down the stairs was information given to us in a previous post.




I completely agree with that situation and rightly so. Like i said accidents happen and thats why we have insur *cough* assurance..

The original quote was "One visitor is said to have taken a tumble down stairs in the dark". Stepping close to the edge of some stairs, unmarked, and in shadow can result in the same efffect as someone running around like a lunatic recklessly. All this is conjecture on my part... noone but the people who are at the centre of this know what exactly happened

Having insurance doesn't mean we don't have to ensure safety just because someone else is going to pay for the medical and rehab costs, an ultimately the rest of the astronomical club community by the look of it.

[DavidTrap (David)]

Originally Posted by firstlight

Imagine you have a broken leg or a knee injury from this incident, suddenly you can't work, and when you point out that here was a saftey issue with the positioning of the stairs and that you couldn't see it because it was not indicated, surely you can't say "Tough, its a viewing night, you should know it's going to be dark"?

Well said Tony. Most rational people don't want to sue, but if they were to suffer financial loss because of someone else's negligence litigation may be the only option open to them to avoid losing their house.

I'm sure the professional observatories have to balance OH&S requirements whilst maintaining a dark environment - amateurs shouldn't expect to be exempt.

School and public viewing nights are definitely at risk - I'm sure the next thing we'll read about is someone touching a child inappropriately in the dark...

DT

[Amunous (Michael)]

Originally Posted by DavidTrap

School and public viewing nights are definitely at risk - I'm sure the next thing we'll read about is someone touching a child inappropriately in the dark...

DT

Thats out and out fearmongering.

If you honestly think someone is going to molest your child in the dark at one of these events and you took your child there and left them open to it. Who is worse the molester or the parent that took the kid, and didnt moniter the interation?

[DavidTrap (David)]

Originally Posted by Amunous

Thats out and out fearmongering.

If you honestly think someone is going to molest your child in the dark at one of these events and you took your child there and left them open to it. Who is worse the molester or the parent that took the kid, and didnt moniter the interation?

I'm just someone who lives in the 21st century. I recently read a document about being a "chaperone" for my daughter's choir. That had specific instructions about never being left alone in a room with a child, where to "touch" a child, what to do if a child needs "comforting", etc. It was quite confronting to think that something you might do innocently could be interpreted another way and lead you into a nasty complaint.

I don't like it any more than you, but this is the way society has gone...

DT

[astronut (John)]

I will certainly be contacting MAS's insurance company today...to see if they are contemplating an increase.
I haven't recieved anything yet!!

[iceman (Mike)]

Who do you use, John?

[bkm2304 (Richard Brown)]

Originally Posted by firstlight

Another aside to this was that events as the SPSP and the Queensland Astrofest were specifically excluded from insurance, something that was a shock to us on the committee as we thought thast as a club event (multiple clubs at that), we would have been covered...

Ah yes, the exclusions and the terminology. Quite a few thousand Australian families have found out all about policy exclusions recently.

When liability fever swept through the local councils in the late 90's in NSW, clubs and small interest groups were faced with utter absurdities such as ladies' crochet circles and the like needing $10 mill liability when using council community halls (I'm not sure either, but I suppose a person wandering by the ladies in the hall might trip over on a ball of wool or gouge themselves with a number 3 hook). The upshot was that many community groups simply folded or started meeting at homes.

Change the law on this sillines and allow people actually to take some responsibility for their actions and not as a reflex blame someone else if at all possible.

Richard

[Shano592 (Shane)]

Thank goodness the Pony Club events are simply a loose association of people with telescopes, who just happen to all be viewing from the same general area in a horse paddock, near Mangrove Mountain, somewhere ...

[DavidTrap (David)]

Originally Posted by bkm2304

Ah yes, the exclusions and the terminology. Quite a few thousand Australian families have found out all about policy exclusions recently.

When liability fever swept through the local councils in the late 90's in NSW, clubs and small interest groups were faced with utter absurdities such as ladies' crochet circles and the like needing $10 mill liability when using council community halls (I'm not sure either, but I suppose a person wandering by the ladies in the hall might trip over on a ball of wool or gouge themselves with a number 3 hook). The upshot was that many community groups simply folded or started meeting at homes.

Change the law on this sillines and allow people actually to take some responsibility for their actions and not as a reflex blame someone else if at all possible.

Richard

Well the laws in Queensland did change and most associations became "incorporated" associations in the mid 90s. This meant the individual members were no longer personally liable in the event of a claim against the association. The associations must have a constitution (rules of incorporation), a certain amount of public liability insurance and regular audits of their financial affairs - what is wrong with that?

If you have a work related injury and have abided by the relevant safety procedures, you will be covered by "Workers Compensation". But if you ignored the safety rules, you're on your own.

I hope the same principles will apply to injuries at Astronomy events. It's part of the responsibility for being an organiser at an event - if you don't provide a safe environment for participants, you can't expect them to cop an injury on the chin. The question is what will the insurer's demand as a "safe environment"?

DT

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

Well, we shall see how it all goes.
Applications and alterations and the completed questionnaire had to be in by end of business today for those insuring through WHH.
If close of business (S.A. time) is 5:00 p.m. I was 3 minutes late

[spacezebra (Petra)]

Yes, we received the same email and sent reply last night. I agree, it will be interesting to see what happens re the premiums.

Cheers Petra d.

[astronut (John)]

Mike (and everyone else)
MAS uses Local Community Insurance Services, they are based in South Australia.
We have been using them for approx 6 years, since the last blow up when the big insurers pulled out of the community group market.
I received a reply from them today stating "As far as our rates and products are concerned this is false information."
This was in relation to my question, that was posed here on IIS.

Cheers, John.

[firstlight (Tony)]

Originally Posted by astronut

Mike (and everyone else)
MAS uses Local Community Insurance Services, they are based in South Australia.
We have been using them for approx 6 years, since the last blow up when the big insurers pulled out of the community group market.
I received a reply from them today stating "As far as our rates and products are concerned this is false information."
This was in relation to my question, that was posed here on IIS.

Cheers, John.

Very interesting. It might pay other societies and clubs to approach your insurer and enquire as to the coverage they provide and their premiums. If the coverage is comparable, the clubs might be able to negotiate fair deals from their own societies or take the business elsewhere. Nothing talks louder and clearer to these people than money and the thought that it might walk.

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

We (SVAA) have been using 'Webster Hyde Heath' in South Australia.

Will be interesting to see how they compare when we receive the new rates.

[Steffen]

I wonder about the legality of having attendees of observing nights sign waiver forms through which they absolve the club from any liability for personal injury?

Cheers
Steffen.

[firstlight (Tony)]

Originally Posted by Steffen

I wonder about the legality of having attendees of observing nights sign waiver forms through which they absolve the club from any liability for personal injury?

Cheers
Steffen.

Isn't something signed without legal advice could be deemed to be under duress? I don't know but it might be a field day for the lawyers. Be just easier to do the right thing and make sure that there are no blatant safety violations.