Philosophy of Science

[CraigS]

So, this may be a deviation from the pure Philosophical bases of Science, but I am not at all sure of the overlaps/parallels with other Philosophies.

It may sound risky, but if we keep an open mind, a lot may come of it.

We have a couple of Buddhist Astronomers at IIS and I, for one, can see that parts of Buddhism aren't necessarily religious. These aspects are pure philosophy. So, with regards to the mainstream scientific process (Hypothesis, Theorisation, Empiricism, etc) and topics like the Universe, time, the search for exo-life etc, I'd like to explore some areas of commonality or disconnect.

For example: The Cosmological Principle is a working assumption which states that observers on Earth do not occupy a restrictive, unusual or privileged location within the universe as a whole, judged as observers of the physical phenomena produced by uniform and universal laws of physics.

In mainstream science, this principle contains implicit qualifications and testable consequences. First the observer doesn't have to be human and also, "looks the same" doesn't have to mean structures, necessarily. The testable consequences are homogeneity and isotropy.

So the original idea came from pure thought.

So, from our declared Buddhist Astronomers, do they share and accept this example of a fundamental of cosmology ? How are their views moderated by other beliefs ? Are there more common (or conflicting) areas of science which repeatedly come up for them ?

Cheers

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

One aspect of Buddhism I particulary like was said to me by a local Buddhist Nun. Don't believe it because I or the Buddha said it but take it and test it within yourself and if it feels right then start to act on it if not put it aside and leave it or look at it every now and then to see if your understanding of it has changed. It seems to me a very scientific approach to what is being taught it doesn't have to be excepted or else.

[CraigS]

I guess its the "test it within yourself, and if it feels right" part where things differ a from science. The point about science is that it intentionally disconnects us from what "feels right", the assumption being that we can be deceived and that we all see things differently.

Interesting that this then contrasts with the Cosmology Principle, which re-establishes that all things look the same, from whatever place the observing is done .. the difference being of course, that the observation should be able to be repeated under the same conditions, by anyone so they can see it for themselves.

"Leaving it or look at it every now and then, to see if your understanding of it has changed", sounds like a change process to me ! The change process is more rigorous in science. Although, as Bert mentioned .. things change if they're bleedingly obvious ! (Which re-introduces what Warren mentions .. the human aspect ! )

Cheers

[CraigS]

So Warren;

Does Buddhist philosophy influence thinking on the possibility of exo-life topic?

Cheers

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

I must disagree with your argument about things looking the same from different locations or perspectives just look at a chair with your eyes than look at it with a electron microscope. Completely different it could be a different object. A chair is only a chair because that's our persception of it we see it and say that is a chair. We say it is static and unchanging when in fact the chair is never the same from one instant to the next it is changing as we look at it never the same as it was. That is we believe that our things are permanent objects which is why we get upset when they change (ie BREAK) ATTACHMENT BRINGS PAIN and Suffering. People don't see the impermanance of our possesions.

CHANGE

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

Originally Posted by CraigS

So Warren;

Does Buddhist philosophy influence thinking on the possibility of exo-life topic?

Cheers

The belief is that we are reborn after death and it doesn't nessasarily mean we have to be born on earth. But this is only a belief.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by supernova1965

The belief is that we are reborn after death and it doesn't nessasarily mean we have to be born on earth. But this is only a belief.

Hmmm..
Now this is a provocative question from me, but I simply can't resist:
What exactly is reborn?
Our memories (which actually determine at least the part of what we are - that elusive "ME") are gone after death.. because they are recorded somehow in our brains (synapses, or on molecular level.. we still don't know the details, it is certainly not a flash drive , but consequences of loosing memory are the same in both cases). And when our brains decay or after it is eaten by worms... it's gone.
So how do we know we are reborn, when the memory of previous life is gone?
Or, even if we are indeed reborn.. does it really matter ?.. if we can't access those past memories in future life? How can anyone prove the "new" person/entity is actually the "old" one ??

[CraigS]

Ok .. perhaps a more formalised statement of the Cosmological Principle is needed:

The cosmological principle is usually stated formally as 'viewed on a sufficiently large scale, the properties of the Universe are the same for all observers.'
This amounts to the strongly philosophical statement that the part of the Universe which we can see is a fair sample, and that the same physical laws apply throughout. In essence, this in a sense says that the Universe is knowable and is playing fair with scientists.

This would seem to answer the changing perspectives on the chair (ie: naked eye vs electron microscope). Its catered for in the 'viewed on the same scale' qualification.

There's something about pattern recognition in your words, also.

Statistical analysis of models in science make use of statistics to formalise the 'level of significance' in order to be able to demonstrate whether the pattern is significant, or not.

As used in statistics, "significant" does not mean important or meaningful, as it does in everyday speech.

Cheers

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

Originally Posted by bojan

Hmmm..
Now this is a provocative question from me, but I simply can't resist:
What exactly is reborn?
Our memories (which actually determine at least the part of what we are - that elusive "ME") are gone after death.. because they are recorded somehow in our brains (synapses, or on molecular level.. we still don't know the details, it is certainly not a flash drive , but consequences of loosing memory are the same in both cases). And when our brains decay or after it is eaten by worms... it's gone.
So how do we know we are reborn, when the memory of previous life is gone?
Or, even if we are indeed reborn.. does it really matter ?.. if we can't access those past memories in future life? How can anyone prove the "new" person/entity is actually the "old" one ??

It is called the Mind Stream and the memories are there and when we become more enlightened we can remember them but after death you do remember them and make choices for future lives. I am hardley qualified to discuss this with any clarity and it is a very difficult subject.

[bojan]

Originally Posted by supernova1965

It is called the Mind Stream and the memories are there and when we become more enlightened we can remember them but after death you do remember them and make choices for future lives. I am hardley qualified to discuss this with any clarity and it is a very difficult subject.

Well, how do you remember them after death? With what?

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by bojan

Hmmm..
Now this is a provocative question from me, but I simply can't resist:
What exactly is reborn?
Our memories (which actually determine at least the part of what we are - that elusive "ME") are gone after death.. because they are recorded somehow in our brains (synapses, or on molecular level.. we still don't know the details, it is certainly not a flash drive , but consequences of loosing memory are the same in both cases). And when our brains decay or after it is eaten by worms... it's gone.
So how do we know we are reborn, when the memory of previous life is gone?
Or, even if we are indeed reborn.. does it really matter ?.. if we can't access those past memories in future life? How can anyone prove the "new" person/entity is actually the "old" one ??

At the quantum level, information is always preserved.

Even as something dives into a Black Hole.

The information remains but it will most likely be re-ordered.

It can be retrieved however.
They proved it mathematically, and they've just verified it experimentally (see the recent No hiding Theorem Confirmed thread !)

Cheers

[bojan]

Well, that is true on quantum level... And that is mathematics.
In practice (and in macro-world) however, reality can be different - and it is, most of the time.

When HD in my computer dies, that's it. I have to go and buy a new one.
And the computer I have after this unfortunate event is not the same one - unless I had a complete backup.

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

Originally Posted by bojan

Well, how do you remember them after death? With what?

Well I can't answer that because I am not enlightened enough but I will be sure to answer that when if I know as long as we are both still in contact

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by bojan

Well, that is true on quantum level... And that is mathematics.
In practice (and in macro-world) however, reality can be different - and it is, most of the time

When HD in my computer dies, that's it. I have to go an buy a new one.
And the computer I have after this unfortunate event is not the same one - unless I had a complete backup.

Yep .. if the information was originally assembled by a Complex or Chaotic process (like a human brain), it would seem that it would not necessarily be able to be re-assembled in the same way (theoretically). But the intrinsic information still remains.

Cheers
PS: In the thread I referenced, the news was that they'd verified it experimentally .. so its not just theoretical mathematics we're talkin' 'bout here ..its real ! (Maybe not for complex matter, however .. they were dealing with paired electron or photon spins I think).

[bojan]

Originally Posted by CraigS

.. But the intrinsic information still remains.

on Backup disk - provided it was an image.
However, what's lost is everything between backup and actual fault.
And that information is really lost.. unless we travel in time to retrieve it

Originally Posted by CraigS

PS: In the thread I referenced, the news was that they'd verified it experimentally .. so its not just theoretical mathematics we're talkin' 'bout here ..its real ! (Maybe not for complex matter, however .. they were dealing with paired electron or photon spins I think).

Yep, I am aware of this..
Entanglement, right?

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by bojan

on Backup disk - provided it was an image.
However, what's lost is everything between backup and actual fault.
And that information is really lost.. unless we travel in time to retrieve it

I think the order has been lost, which does convey recognisable, (to the owner), information, (ie: if it has been 'corrupted'). But in the corruption process, electron spins of the material on the disk have only been changed … not lost. If enough is known about the corruption process, it can be retrieved. Presumably from the electron's entangled pair, elsewhere in the Universe. It doesn't hide anywhere .. its still there .. you just have to know enough to retrieve it (?)
My answer may be a little inaccurate .. but the principle holds .. information is NEVER lost, according to QM.

Originally Posted by bojan

Yep, I am aware of this..
Entanglement, right?

Think so .. its been a while since I opened the thread.

Cheers

[avandonk]

Entanglement means your existence let alone your conciousness is just a blip in time of an arrangement of atoms etc. that is a tiny part of the whole Universe. Of course it is important to you. You are about as relevant to the Universe as the fleeting virtual particle pairs that appear out of nowhere and dissapear again.

Just enjoy it while you can! The information is not lost it just adds to the quality of entanglement so your DNA and Mitochondria have more to cling to too survive the next cycle of rebirth and life.

Bert

[bojan]

Bert, I feel better now

[avandonk]

It is quite scary Bojan but your supposedly immutable DNA can be modified by your environment. You then pass on this modified DNA. It can go down through generations.
You inherit your Mitochondria from your mother. This again is the energy source of your cells and is not passed on genetically but is part of the egg your mother supplies.

Bert

[bojan]

Yep, I know ...
However, you are talking about about hardware... and I am talking about software - and that part is unique and can't be passed on (at least, I think it can't.. or I can't see the way for this to be passed on).
But, as you said, it doesn't matter..
It's just this lousy Melbourne weather that is painting my thoughts in black..

I think I'll have a beer now (Guinness, of course).. and to bed.. tomorrow I have to go to work....