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22-10-2010, 06:25 PM
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Unpredictable
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,023
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I've just finished Part 3 and I'm having a chuckle about what I said to Stuart about 'don't take it as the truth'. It seems that Cantor did, and it, (unfortunately), drove him to obsessiveness and breakdown.
There's so much gold in this documentary ! (I'm excited just watching it !)
These guys that have come before us truly were pioneering greats !
Just fantastic.
Cheers
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22-10-2010, 06:36 PM
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avandonk
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,786
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It gets far worse!
You may now understand my thoughts with the brain as a quantum computer and being connected in some way to the whole Universe by quantum entanglement.
Bert
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22-10-2010, 06:40 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigS
I've just finished Part 3 and I'm having a chuckle about what I said to Stuart about 'don't take it as the truth'. It seems that Cantor did, and it, (unfortunately), drove him to obsessiveness and breakdown.
There's so much gold in this documentary ! (I'm excited just watching it !)
These guys that have come before us truly were pioneering greats !
Just fantastic.
Cheers
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Unfortunately with country speed dial up I can't view the documentary but anything involving Georg Cantor would be very interesting.
From what I can recall from my Uni days Cantor came up with the concept of "countable" and "uncountable" infinite sets.
He also defined ideas that were intuitive but still difficult to comprehend due to the definition of infinity. For example the set of natural numbers and integers are both infinite sets but the set of integers contains twice as many elements...
Regards
Steven
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22-10-2010, 06:45 PM
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Unpredictable
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjastro
Unfortunately with country speed dial up I can't view the documentary but anything involving Georg Cantor would be very interesting.
From what I can recall from my Uni days Cantor came up with the concept of "countable" and "uncountable" infinite sets.
He also defined ideas that were intuitive but still difficult to comprehend due to the definition of infinity. For example the set of natural numbers and integers are both infinite sets but the set of integers contains twice as many elements...
Regards
Steven
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I think Robh also pointed this out recently, in the 'New Habitable Planet' thread.
Boltzmann's done himself in, too (I'm starting to see what Bert means).
They move onto Kurt Godel and Alan Turing.
Great doco.
Cheers
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22-10-2010, 06:49 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Para Hills, South Australia
Posts: 3,622
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So far very interesting doco, and will continue to watch the whole series. Thanks for the link.
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22-10-2010, 07:00 PM
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avandonk
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,786
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Wait there is more! Chaos theory and fractals!
We live in an indeterminate Universe. Every act we perform changes the future.
Fate is a myth!
It is up to each one of us to make our future.
Bert
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22-10-2010, 07:06 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,926
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigS
I think Robh also pointed this out recently, in the 'New Habitable Planet' thread.
Boltzmann's done himself in, too (I'm starting to see what Bert means).
They move onto Kurt Godel and Alan Turing.
Great doco.
Cheers
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Set theory is intuitive compared to other concepts pure mathematicians have come up with particularly in the field of algebraic and geometric topology.
I find it difficult to visualize how a Klein bottle (a hollow bottle with no inside  ) when cut in half lengthwise will form two Mobius strips (a strip twisted once with the ends glued together.   )
Mathematically however it is straightforward.
Regards
Steven
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22-10-2010, 07:17 PM
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Unpredictable
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,023
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Don't know about that one Steven but the areas this doco is covering include:
Godel's incompleteness theorem:
"No matter how large you make your axioms (logic bases), there'll always be statements that are true but cannot be proven to be true .. no matter how much data you have."
Consequences of this is that Logic is a 'failure' when it comes to proof.
So, when applied to Cantor's Continuum Hypothesis about infinite infinities, Godel couldn't prove it, then he ended up in a sanitorium .. lost in intellectual problems. (They mustn't have had enough beer in those days).
So .. there is no way of telling which are the unprovable problems and which are the provable ones.
(Sorry if you're already across this Steven .. this is more for anyone who cannot see the doco or to add to add some Science value to Stuart's thread).
Cheers
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22-10-2010, 07:27 PM
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avandonk
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,786
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You have to see this doco in the sense that these blokes were products of their times. To stand up and say everything is not real takes guts. To admit it to oneself takes more guts.
I have come to the conclusion all great scientists and thinkers are marginally autistic if not they were manic depressive.
We are emotional beings and without it we would just rape pillage and burn. Ok it is allright to do it to the enemy but not our neigbours.
Bert
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22-10-2010, 07:48 PM
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Unpredictable
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,023
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Bert .. yep .. I'll come back to that.
Alan Turing: Uncalculability Theorem: incompleteness in computing .. are we or aren't we logic based computers ? Are our minds like computers ? If so, incompleteness will be our burden .. our problem because logic is flawed with uncalculability. (Turing's gone).
Back to Godel: reaching truth outside of logic was his new quest. He thought he was 'divine'. He and Einstein were colleagues and talked about deep philosophical issues. Godel latched onto human intuition which extends our ability to think beyong the provable and logic (of Turing's computers). However, he attempted to use "maths to show the limits of maths" .. very contradictory. He's gone also, with that thought.
End conclusion of the doco is that we have to learn to live with the problem. There are no absolutes .. we are incomplete and finite.
Stuart: You've gotta see this doco. It hits the nail right on the head.
Bert/Steven: Thank you, both.
Fantastic ! Time for a beer ! Before I go completely nuts !!
Cheers & Rgds.
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22-10-2010, 07:54 PM
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Unpredictable
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avandonk
You have to see this doco in the sense that these blokes were products of their times. To stand up and say everything is not real takes guts. To admit it to oneself takes more guts.
I have come to the conclusion all great scientists and thinkers are marginally autistic if not they were manic depressive.
We are emotional beings and without it we would just rape pillage and burn. Ok it is allright to do it to the enemy but not our neigbours.
Bert
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These guys were passionate about their work. Their passion led to obsession (perhaps with the exception of Turing).
They extended human thinking beyond most boundaries. Its interesting that Einstein didn't although, he became fairly obsessed with unification. In the end, I think he ignored the evolving Bohr/quantum mechanics revolution, which may ultimately, one day, lead to unification.
Its all about balance eh, Bert ?
Cheers
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22-10-2010, 08:05 PM
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avandonk
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,786
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It is even scarier than that Craig. Your brain has already computed all the necessary steps to move your arm before you have consciously thought of moving it!
NMR scans have proved this.
Are you in really charge of your own body?
It seems we have an auto system that does all the movements automatically and absolutely blindly without reason. We just go along for the ride thinking we did it!
Bert
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22-10-2010, 08:18 PM
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avandonk
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,786
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Craig there is a very good book called Godel Escher and Bach I read many years ago that covers these problems of reality and consistency in our meagre efforts to to confront reality.
I lent my copy out and never got it back.
Bert
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22-10-2010, 08:24 PM
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Unpredictable
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avandonk
Craig there is a very good book called Godel Escher and Bach I read many years ago that covers these problems of reality and consistency in our meagre efforts to to confront reality.
I lent my copy out and never got it back.
Bert
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I'll have to snoop that one out !
Add it to a list that could end up putting me into an asylum !
Cheers
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22-10-2010, 08:37 PM
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avandonk
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,786
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Escher used to make drawings of continuous water falls that defied gravity and perspective. Bach used to cheat our senses that we could not detect his cunning ever rising pitch as an illusion. Godel knew why we were fooled.
Bert
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22-10-2010, 08:48 PM
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Unpredictable
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avandonk
Escher used to make drawings of continuous water falls that defied gravity and perspective. Bach used to cheat our senses that we could not detect his cunning ever rising pitch as an illusion. Godel knew why we were fooled.
Bert
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Sounds dangerous !
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22-10-2010, 08:55 PM
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Unpredictable
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,023
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So Bert, your point has always been that the human mind can take us way beyond anything which may be real in nature, right ?
And we are only just at the beginnings of understanding the universe because we've only just begun to develop the tools to do so.
Did you see in the General Chat section the thread about the headset that is capable of reading one's brainwaves and taking actions based on that.
Does this mean we are beginning to tap into how the brain really works ? Or is this just some from of trick ?
The universe may be a hologram, and us the projection of that hologram. (I haven't even begun to work this one out yet .. so don't ask me about it !!)
I think you've mentioned that a good smack will sort this one out !!
Cheers
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22-10-2010, 09:08 PM
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avandonk
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,786
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There are a few assumptions that cannot be avoided. Can a finite brain understand an infinite Universe? Alright a very big one at best!
I do not have any answers. Godel says we cannot! We cannot even define the simple number system without paradoxes.
The Universe is built from the bottom up ie quantum and particle theory.
The foundations at best look very dodgy! Indeterminate and suffering from a reality crisis.
Yet the stone in my shoe really hurts.
Bert
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22-10-2010, 09:28 PM
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Unpredictable
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 3,023
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I keep coming back to a perspective that none of this universe theory stuff has to be real (or the truth). Attempting to understand the concepts simply leads to an expanded view of it all, and can be fun.
Most of the theories predict the behaviours of things. People take comfort in predictability. They get to be right .. which is a buzz for them. The theories also result in discoveries, and technologies, which improve all our lives. They also satisfy our own insatiable curiosity.
So many take it all far too seriously, though.
I get a lot of comfort from these perspectives.
Each to his own, I guess.
Cheers
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