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  #21  
Old 12-04-2010, 06:16 AM
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The sensor is sampling the image at the pixel spacing along the sensor edges. At 45 degrees it is sampling at 1.414 X pixel spacing. Dithering randomly then gives you sampling along the diagonals at the pixel spacing. With more frames the image is sampled uniformly at the pixel spacing and then with stacking the resolution actually exceeds the pixel spacing. Note real attainable resolution is twice pixel spacing due to Niquist Theorem. In reality it is a bit worse than this.

In the case of the 300mm lens the stars are undersampled so any enhancement without dithering will result in lovely square stars. Upsizing does not help as the squares just get bigger.

Here is an animated gif showing the difference with dithered and not. 160k
http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.co...10_04/card.gif

The effect is more dramatic than reality as the conditions are not identical. I have looked for data that was not dithered to compare to. The only definitive way to do it is to collect a set of exposures without dithering and with on the same night so all other conditions are the same.


Below is a crop of a single frame at native pixel size from the dithered set of corrected tiffs. Note how the stars are square or very blocky. The second image is what it looks like upsized X1.6 by cubic interpolation.

The third is twenty stacked upsized dithered frames. I think the improvement is obvious. The stars are far rounder in the stacked image especially the small dim ones.

These frames were all screen captures so that the pixels in the images did not change from what was actually there.

Bert
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Last edited by avandonk; 12-04-2010 at 07:11 AM.
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  #22  
Old 12-04-2010, 06:19 AM
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I use Guidemaster which can offset the guide star between exposures randomly by a specified number of pixels of the guide camera. It then guides atthe new position of the guide star.

Here is an animated GIF of 200% crops of jpg's straight out of the canera of the exact same area of sensor 3.8MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.co...0_04/crop1.gif

You can see the hot pixels do not move.

Dithering also really helps with noise reduction.

Below is a stack of these ten crops, Notice the hot pixels are gone even without correcting for darks. And the same stack with levels adjusted. Note this was done with cruddy 8 bit jpg's.

By moving by many pixels it also smooths out any noise due to the sensor. It is pointless stacking the same noisy pixel on top of itself as you just enhance the noise or the 'hole' produced by over subtraction of noise by temperature mismatched darks.

Bert
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  #23  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:01 AM
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This might be better to show what is happening.

First image is a crop of a single frame at native pixel size.
Second is a stack of twenty dithered of these stacked in DSS

Third image is a crop of a single frame at X1.6 cubic interpolation of the first frame.
Fourth is a stack of twenty dithered of these stacked in DSS

They are all screen captures to show pixel structure.

Bert
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Last edited by avandonk; 12-04-2010 at 08:35 AM.
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  #24  
Old 12-04-2010, 08:23 AM
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Bert,
This fantastic algorithm should be "patented" :-)
Actually, it may be worth talking to IRIS and/or DSS developers... to incorporate this functionality into software (or to develop script), to automate the procedure.
Once more, fantastic !!

Last edited by bojan; 12-04-2010 at 09:17 AM.
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  #25  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:07 AM
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Bojan it is too late to patent even if I wanted to as it is now in the public domain. I would be interested to see how this works at shorter focal lengths for real wide fields. Too much to do and not enough clear skies. I am retired now and do not ever want to go through the patent process again. Even with a patent a big rich company can send you broke by eternal litigation. Unless you have deep pockets it is better not to patent. Just keep quiet and die with the secret.

My ethos is to put back in as much as I can into the astronomical community as I have taken far more than I can ever give back.

That last set of images really shows what is happening without invoking any mathematics. I always knew the 300mm lens was better than my sensor. In hindsight the solution is now obvious. It was just a matter of the getting the correct tools and skills.

Bert
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  #26  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avandonk View Post
Bojan it is too late to patent even if I wanted to as it is now in the public domain.

Bert
Perhaps I should have put this word in parentheses.. It's been corrected now.

I think my 100mm and 50mm Canon FD SSC lenses are better than they look like at first glance as well..
Perhaps when I find some time I will try your method on images taken with them (and, I first of all, have to take them .. )
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  #27  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:18 AM
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Isn't this the same as "drizzling" or am I on the wrong planet?

H
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  #28  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Octane View Post
Isn't this the same as "drizzling" or am I on the wrong planet?

H

Yes it is mathematically. It is a better practical method as it also corrects for the defects in one shot colour sensors that are not cooled to -40C as CCD's are due to their poor performance anywhere near room temperature.

There is really nothing new it is just a method that does it all better.

Some people advocate subpixel dithering. By this the always present drift is sufficient. For reasons already stated it is better to dither by many pixels.

I should note again I correct for flats and darks with data in fits files. I then also stretch in the fits files. It is only then I interpolate to the TIFF files. This gets data that is far less corrupted or riddled with artefacts..

Bert

Last edited by avandonk; 12-04-2010 at 09:40 AM.
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  #29  
Old 12-04-2010, 11:26 AM
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Excellent and very interesting Bert. Thanks for putting the time into this presentation.
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  #30  
Old 12-04-2010, 01:11 PM
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Hi Bert
excellent work and presentation.

I have just posted an image of the fox fur - 7.5 hours - so, let me try this procedure and post the result.

So, to get it right: My images are calibrated and aligned (they were dithered during capture).
I will upscale 2x each image (I suspect I can use Photoshop or CCDSTACK or Maxim to do this) and then stack.

I can then make a direct comparison with the image I processed tonight, without the upscaling.

cheers
Martin
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  #31  
Old 12-04-2010, 01:48 PM
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Bert
Is there a program you use to batch upsize your files before stacking etc
Thanks
Allan
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  #32  
Old 12-04-2010, 02:00 PM
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Hi Bert
well, my initial test was unsuccessful.

The resultant FWHM of stars in the sum-combined image (consisting of upscaled images before the combination), was larger by a factor of 33%..and visibly obvious when blinking the images. (This is FSQ/STX data, 3.5asp, so well undersampled).

I used CCDSTACK and a quadratic bispline algorithim to upscale, then I used the same procedure to downscale the image at the end. I have heard that a bispline algorithim smears light in stars - which could explain it.
Thoughts?
cheers
Martin
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  #33  
Old 12-04-2010, 02:41 PM
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What do you mean by sum combined Martin? To get any sort of enhancement you need at least median combined.How many images did you stack?

I use ImagesPlus to upsize by a factor of 1.6 using bicubic interpolation. I then stack with DSS using Median Kappa-Sigma.

Is the BMP image you put up at native pixel size?

Bert
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  #34  
Old 12-04-2010, 09:21 PM
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Bert
I tried your technique by resizing with nebulosity before stacking in DSS (No drizzle in DSS Stacking- second photo) and compared it to stacking and drizzle resizing with DSS (first photo). There is definately better retention of fine detail which can be brought out by your technique than what I was previously using. Many thanks Bert as i'm now a convert.
Allan
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  #35  
Old 13-04-2010, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allan gould View Post
Bert
I tried your technique by resizing with nebulosity before stacking in DSS (No drizzle in DSS Stacking- second photo) and compared it to stacking and drizzle resizing with DSS (first photo). There is definately better retention of fine detail which can be brought out by your technique than what I was previously using. Many thanks Bert as i'm now a convert.
Allan

Allan I would be interested in seeing 100% crops. What was the focal length and pixel size. The real test is if other people find that it works for them and is not just a figment of my constant cloud addled mind.

Bert
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  #36  
Old 13-04-2010, 09:13 AM
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I assume that this technique is mostly useful with undersampled images just like "drizel"
It makes little differenc if you have well or oversampled mages.
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  #37  
Old 13-04-2010, 09:20 AM
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Bert
Dont know if this answers you question but the fl of the imaging system was 1600mm and pixel size 5.4u. The photos were 100% full-frames presented.
Allan
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  #38  
Old 13-04-2010, 09:38 AM
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I think Bert wanted to see 100% sized crops (so that every original pixel is visible) and not 100% frame (which is originally 3888 x 2592 but in your presentation it is scaled down sigificantly)
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  #39  
Old 13-04-2010, 10:38 AM
Martin Pugh
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Bert
I summed-combined the images, because I wanted to make a direct comparison with the image I posted yesterday, which was sum combined.

Regardless, I can go back and repeat with a median combine.

I have 23 images in the stack (and even my 64bit 8Gb RAM machine nearly died in the process)

The image I posted yesterday, is at the native resolution - but I did not post my result from my attempt at your technique last night.

I have DSS....so I will upscale using CCDSTACK at 1.6 times and use bicubic, then use DSS and the algorithim you list to median combine.

let you know how it goes.

cheers
Martin
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  #40  
Old 13-04-2010, 11:50 AM
Martin Pugh
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Bert
I failed again!
I upscaled by 1.6x using CCDSTACK (bicubic), but I could not median combine in DSS, it crashed everytime.

So I used sigma clipping combine in Maxim, but the result was the same as posted earlier - i.e bloated FWHM.

Still trying other methods for now
cheers
Martin
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