3D tv in your home by the end of this year

[Satchmo]

Originally Posted by Kal

The important thing for 3D tv is how the tv handles the 50Hz input signal and converts it to a 120Hz output

Disclaimer: It's late, so if any of this is trash and not true I have my excuse

No, you can't adapt shutterglass technology that requires 120hz refresh to work with 50-60hz input. You will need new technology such as allready available in DLP projection style TV's and 120hz monitors

[Calibos (Keith)]

I'm with Satchmo on the Projector. I actually can't see the point of 3D on screen sizes below 50" with normal living room viewing distances.

I will not be investing in a 3DTV but will be investing in a 3DPJ when they come out. I've been a fan of Panasonics range of Consumer LCD widescreen and HD projectors for a long time. I reckon they are great bang for the buck with a great price performance ratio positioned just at the point of diminishing returns starts to kick in where doubling the price no longer doubles the picture quality improvement. Sure they don't have market leading black levels or market leading colour etc but they are a fraction of the price of the best of the best. 2000 euros for their latest model the AE4000

Was about to pull the trigger on one of these. Has a great auto zooming/focusing feature. In practice this means that you buy the biggest 2.35 ratio format screen you can fit. With 1080p resolutions you can do away with the need for anamorphic lenses and simply zoom up the 2.35 film to fit the screen and zoom back down for 16:9. This is known as a CIH (Constant image height) setup. This way its the big movies that have the largest impact in your room instead of 16:9TV. Going for a CIW setup means your 16:9 TV shows appear bigger with more impact than movies which is not the way I think it should be.

But I digress. I was about to pull the trigger until I read that 3D was coming to the consumer realm a lot quicker than I imagined. With Panasonic being one of the main driving forces behind the push for consumer 3D and a big player in deciding the industry standard, I have a feeling that next years model, the AE5000? will be 3d capable, (true 120HZ refresh rate)

House is currently being renovated with a dedicated cinema room. I can't wait for the day that I am watching Avatar in 3D sitting about 13ft back from a 120" wide(not diag) 2.35:1 ratio screen. It'll be like looking out a big window in the side of the house at the planet pandora.

The 21st century is starting to arrive and only 10 years late

[Barrykgerdes]

What's so new. Apparently you stilll need glasses. I remember watching the three stooges in 3D on the old 17" B&W nearly 50 years ago.

Baz

[Kal (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by Satchmo

No, you can't adapt shutterglass technology that requires 120hz refresh to work with 50-60hz input. You will need new technology such as allready available in DLP projection style TV's and 120hz monitors

Well, the HDMI 1.4 specification will support 3D tv and it's maximum frequency is stated as:

HDMI 1.4 was released on May 28, 2009, and Silicon Image expects their first HDMI 1.4 products to sample in the second half of 2009.[53][106] HDMI 1.4 increases the maximum resolution to 4K × 2K (3840×2160p at 24Hz/25Hz/30Hz and 4096×2160p at 24Hz, which is a resolution used with digital theaters); an HDMI Ethernet Channel, which allows for a 100 Mb/s Ethernet connection between the two HDMI connected devices; and introduces an Audio Return Channel, 3D Over HDMI (HDMI 1.3 devices will only support this for 1080i)[107], a new Micro HDMI Connector, expanded support for color spaces, and an Automotive Connection System.[53][108] HDMI 1.4 supports several stereoscopic 3D formats including field alternative (interlaced), frame alternative, frame packing, line alternative, side-by-side half, side-by-side full, 2D + depth, and 2D + depth + graphics + graphics depth,[50][109][110] with top/bottom half and full formats to be added in January 2010. HDMI 1.4 requires that 3D displays support the frame packing 3D formats at either 720p50 and 1080p24 or 720p60 and 1080p24.[110] High Speed HDMI 1.3 cables can support all HDMI 1.4 features except for the HDMI Ethernet Channel.[50][109][110]

So I can tell you now that you will not need 120Hz input - in fact, you only need 24Hz input for true 1080p 3D across HDMI using 4096×2160p at 24Hz.

[Kal (Andrew)]

Looks like I was wrong about being able to use any existing tv. From my previous post - the tv will need to support frame packing 3D formats, and this article also confirms new displays will need to be bought.

[Satchmo]

Originally Posted by Kal

So I can tell you now that you will not need 120Hz input - in fact, you only need 24Hz input for true 1080p 3D across HDMI using 4096×2160p at 24Hz.

I thought we were talking about flicker free 'page flipping' 3d with shutter glasses at 120hz retaining full resolution of the movie . All the 'frame packing' methods do not retain the full resolution of the film ( usually lose half the resolution ) but may be possible to use at 50hz.

I will pursue full resolution methods as I don't want to compromise anything to see 3D.

Yep theres no doubt that 3d is going to require new hardware , so its going to be a pretty slow take off. People are only jsut getting excited by LED technology which is still 50-60hz.

[Satchmo]

Originally Posted by Kal

Looks like I was wrong about being able to use any existing tv. From my previous post - the tv will need to support frame packing 3D formats, and this article also confirms new displays will need to be bought.

URL doesn't work.

[Kal (Andrew)]

Hmm, don't know what happened to the link (it will be in hy browsing history at home).

Basically it was an interview regarding 3d blu-ray and the like where they said it was "most likely you will need a new tv".

I listened to an interesting podcast last night with a guy from the blu-ray disc association, where he said blu-rays approach was to be completely neutral on how the 3D content is presented - they are leaving that up to tv manufacturers. So while they defined the codec and the transfer method, it will be up to tv manufacturers to implement the 3D hardware however they like. But the codec does deliver 1080p24 on both left and right view. So my impresion was that it will be up to the tv's to implement the shutter glass in conjunction with the tv - so it will sync to the tv, not the data output source. They were comparing it to remote controls where you get a remote control that only works on the tv you bought it with - it will be the same with shutter glasses.

[Satchmo]

I see where you are coming from with the Bluray standard . It really sounds like they are finding something that will work 50hz sets which will be the bulk of existing sets. It will be really interesting to see what they come up with as add ons for existing TV sets . I notice there is also a 720P standard in the Bluray S3d, which will be of more interest due to the higher frame rate.

24fps will be a big compromise for 3d. Even if they use frame buffering to stop flicker with shutterglasses it will be create eyestrain with fast moving action in 3D. The RealD system in the theatre works at something like 96 fps so you don't get blurring and flickering due to the 'jumping' of fast moving objects in the 3D space during the interval between successive frames with each eye.

I'm well aware of this problem as I spent 6 months playing World of Warcraft with an Emagin 3D head visor with a a 60hz refresh ( 30 hz each eye ) and it used a frame buffer to smooth out any flicker due to the maximum input frame rate of 60 fps with vertical sync on , using the page flipping mode of 3D video. It definitely caused some weird visual sensations and artifacts with fast moving action , particularly where the view was panning sideways rapidly. When I used the visor in 2D ( 60HZ) both eyes the problem didn't exist.
All that being said , playing WOW in 3D was a fantastic experience. I might fire up the Emagin glasses some time to check out the new AVATAR game in 3D! I was lucky to pick them up for $500 ( they are now $1500 )

I expect the saving grace will be that most people have TV's 40" or under so the screen will appear small compared to the theatre and any artifacts just won't appear so nauseating.

We are certainly entering a new era of mass culture 3D virtual reality.

I can recommend the MTBS 3D forum . There are many very knowledgeable people there.

[Kal (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by Satchmo

I can recommend the MTBS 3D forum . There are many very knowledgeable people there.

Thanks for the link. I must say it has been difficult for me to find concrete information, probably because the blu-ray standard was only finalised in December. One thing for sure is that I will put off my planned tv upgrade (I'm still using a CRT tv at home) until I see where this pans out in a years time. I do enjoy 3D IMAX's and 3D movies so I am the type of person that would love it at home.

[rubiksquare (Sara)]

It all seems abit of a gimmick atm. If the idea is pushed more with different ways of creating 3d images without glasses i'd seriously consider the purchase.

[starlooker (Duc)]

Wouldn't it be good if they had 3D goggles that you can hook up by USB to your computer?

Cheaper than a TV, and it can be used for 3D computer games etc.

[NPSF3000]

Originally Posted by rubiksquare

It all seems abit of a gimmick atm. If the idea is pushed more with different ways of creating 3d images without glasses i'd seriously consider the purchase.

Prototypes are in existence, though there are no real problems with glasses.

Originally Posted by starlooker

Wouldn't it be good if they had 3D goggles that you can hook up by USB to your computer?

Cheaper than a TV, and it can be used for 3D computer games etc.

Been around for years - a popular implementation is NVIDIA 3D VISION.

[multiweb (Marc)]

There's a lot of ink in the media and tech forums about it. I reckon the way to go is with passive glasses like in the theater. You don't want bulky glasses with incorporated batteries, or wiring or wireless (signal drop). I guess it's wait and see game right now. No rush. All will come in good time when the dust settles.

[Satchmo]

The NVidea 3D 120hz shutterglass is the best most cost effective solution at the moment. The glasses are not bulky , are wireless, and run about 40 hours before plugging in for a recharge.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/3D_Vision_Main.html

'Passive' solutions like RealD require twin projectors at the domestic level and very expensive silver screen to project on.

Just noticed on the Nvidea site a Fuji 3D digital camera shoots digital stills and video

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product...eal_3d_us.html

[Kal (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by Satchmo

Just noticed on the Nvidea site a Fuji 3D digital camera shoots digital stills and video

http://www.nvidia.com/object/product...eal_3d_us.html

And quite affordable too if you already have a Nvidia 3D shutter glasses setup on your pc

[NPSF3000]

Originally Posted by Satchmo

The NVidea 3D 120hz shutterglass is the best most cost effective solution at the moment. The glasses are not bulky , are wireless, and run about 40 hours before plugging in for a recharge.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/3D_Vision_Main.html

Cost around $300 and require a NVIDIA GPU. You still need an 120hz monitor. It is designed for gaming, it does not appear to be cost effective for home theater.

[Satchmo]

Originally Posted by NPSF3000

Cost around $300 and require a NVIDIA GPU. You still need an 120hz monitor. It is designed for gaming, it does not appear to be cost effective for home theater.

The Optima HD66 is bright 2500 lumen 720p HD projector that can be driven via HDMI from your Nvidea video card. It syncs at 120hz and will work with the Nvidea 3D glasses. They sell in the USA for $699. A great lowcost solution for 3D home theatre driven by a cheap PC.

Any 3D content , movies, games, photos etc can be played with the Nvidea solution.

Extra glasses are a bit of a sting at $149...

[NPSF3000]

Originally Posted by Satchmo

The Optima HD66 is bright 2500 lumen 720p HD projector that can be driven via HDMI from your Nvidea video card. It syncs at 120hz and will work with the Nvidea 3D glasses. They sell in the USA for $699. A great lowcost solution for 3D home theatre driven by a cheap PC.

Any 3D content , movies, games, photos etc can be played with the Nvidea solution.

Extra glasses are a bit of a sting at $149...

The following figures are relatively correct for Australia, and unless you can give me a link for price i'm going to assume $300 for the glasses (cause I can find that price).

For any sort of home entertainment system:

Nvidia: $700 Computer ($400 bare bones + $200 Bluray and $100 nvidia card).

4 Glasses(Min): $1200

Projector: $1000 (Can't find one in Aus, so i'm pretending to ship it over).

Total Price around $2900 (AUD)

Your talking about the price range of cutting edge 3D Plasma and LED TV's. Sure you can do it, but the result is defiently not worth the minute saving you might be getting. Even if Nvidia drops their glasses to $100 (And you managed to get the cost to around $2000) I still wouldn't recommend them for a home theater situation.

[Satchmo]

Originally Posted by NPSF3000

Even if Nvidia drops their glasses to $100 (And you managed to get the cost to around $2000) I still wouldn't recommend them for a home theater situation.

A bright 2500 lumen 3 meter screen for gaming and movies 2D and 3D is going to wipe any LCD /Plasma solution * if you are into 3D * ( and even 2d)

I have been running an 1100 lumen projector with a 2.5 meter screen for 6 years now and wouldn't ever consider going back to a small screen for any entertainment purpose . Some people just can't cope with a big screen though , so it comes down to personal taste. I also have a cheap Media Center PC hooked up which is the hub of my entertainment . Thats my experience anyway...