Which to buy? CGE Pro or Paramount ME... - Page 2

Zaps · #21 24-12-2009, 04:26 PM

Re the ASA mounts, most of the criticisms being leveled at those are much the same as the ones we heard when the PME first appeared on the scene, and are very similar to criticisms of any new ground-breaking technology.

People who have invested heavily in the old tech (in this case the PME) are reluctant to see their prized possession outmoded by the new.

No doubt the ASA mounts will suffer teething issues, just as the PMEs did (and those aren't perfect even now), but it's my belief that direct drive is going to be the way all mount manufacturers will have to go if they wish to last the distance.

Let's face it guys, everything is obsoleted by new stuff sooner or later, and usually sooner, which is usually something to be happy about. I really like the idea of owning a truly professional class direct drive mount tomorrow for the same price or less than a semi-pro geared mount like the PME costs today.

As for the original question? IMHO, the AP-1200, EM-500, and PME are all better buys than the CGE Pro, but they'll all be relegated to old style tech soon. :-)

AlexN · #22 24-12-2009, 04:51 PM

So because the ASA mount has newer technology its better than something tried and tested? Ok.. Sure, I'll keep that in mind...

Direct Drive technology is indeed a very clever way to go about an equatorial mount. Is it going to be be better than the PME or AP1200 within the next few years, and even then, will the difference in precision (namely, zero backlash) going to make an appreciable difference to amateur imagers? Probably not.. Is the ASA mount available? What? Its not yet? Ok so then the best, currently available mounts are??

Astro-Physics/Sotfware Bisque..

Anything you buy, ever, in the entire span of human life will eventually be outdated... If you wait 10 more years im sure direct drive mounts will be outdated.. Who cares if its out dated if it will do everything you ever want it to and then some?

Oh no!! Im no longer a trend setter, my mount is less technologically advanced than someone elses, all of a sudden I feel inadequate!!

Hehe...

Moon (James) · #23 24-12-2009, 05:25 PM

I sent ASA an email back on 26 of November asking for some basic information and I still don't have a reply, despite my reminders. I gave them a chance to sell me an expensive mount and they blew it.

New technology is good and well, but customer service is more important IMHO.

Zaps · #24 24-12-2009, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexN

So because the ASA mount has newer technology its better than something tried and tested?

That's not what I said. Not even close. I said that the direct drive technology of professional mounts is the future of amateur astronomical mount technology, and ASA happen to be producing such mounts for the amateur market.

Remember (if you're able) that when SB began offering the PME, many people who'd invested a lot of money in other mounts questioned the quality and even the concept of the then new PME "fully robotic observatory mounts".

Quote:

Direct Drive technology is indeed a very clever way to go about an equatorial mount.

Indeed. It's why professional astronomers use it.

Quote:

Is it going to be be better than the PME or AP1200 within the next few years, and even then, will the difference in precision (namely, zero backlash) going to make an appreciable difference to amateur imagers?

Yes, for those who can afford them. That means the kind of people who adopted the PME when it was a new design.

Quote:

Is the ASA mount available? What? Its not yet? Ok so then the best, currently available mounts are??

Astro-Physics/Sotfware Bisque..

Wrong. The ASA mounts are available. They are in use by semi-pros and pros alike. You should do a little reading before shooting your mouth off like that.

Quote:

Anything you buy, ever, in the entire span of human life will eventually be outdated...

I said that, and yes, the PME will be outdated soon, if not already, by direct drive technology from the likes of ASA. Sure, it hurts to hear that when you've proudly just laid out a lot of money on something like the PME, but that's the way things go.

Quote:

If you wait 10 more years im sure direct drive mounts will be outdated.

Not likely in 10 years. There is no technology yet on the horizon to replace direct drive in professional grade mounts.

Quote:

Who cares if its out dated if it will do everything you ever want it to and then some?

Why pay a lot of money for something which is outdated? The direct drive mounts for non-professionals are now on the market. Price point wise they are in the same ballpark as the PME when that was new: a lot of folk complained that those were too expensive, were untested, and would never catch on.

Quote:

Oh no!! Im no longer a trend setter, my mount is less technologically advanced than someone elses, all of a sudden I feel inadequate!!

I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm sure you'll get over it eventually.

Zaps · #25 24-12-2009, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moon

I sent ASA an email back on 26 of November asking for some basic information and I still don't have a reply, despite my reminders. I gave them a chance to sell me an expensive mount and they blew it.

New technology is good and well, but customer service is more important IMHO.

Yet when I recently sent them an email enquiry they replied immediately (within a couple of hours). And later they mailed out print brochures of their products. A few days later I called ASA and had a long and very informative chat with two of the guys who work there. I gave them a chance to sell me an expensive mount and they didn't blow it, which is why I'm about to order my ASA mount very soon.

Ya know, experiences vary: In my dealings with them in the past, the Bisque brothers haven't always been the greatest people on planet Earth to deal with. They can be downright cranky and even kind of inefficient when it comes to customer service.

Doomsayer · #26 24-12-2009, 06:15 PM

As a point of interest, harmonic drive technology is not completely new (as used in the Chronos mount). The harmonic drive system was invented in the 1950s and harmonic drives began being manufactured in the 1960s commercially. More recent variants have encoders and other tech built in. You can buy small used harmonic drives on ebay. A friend of mine has actually used them in a large home built mount.

There is no doubt that the application of these drives to imaging system hardware has many advantages over conventional worm and wheel geared drives. A well established application of the drives is seen in the robotic arms used in automotive production lines,

Zaps · #27 24-12-2009, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomsayer

As a point of interest, harmonic drive technology is not completely new (as used in the Chronos mount). The harmonic drive system was invented in the 1950s and harmonic drives began being manufactured in the 1960s commercially. More recent variants have encoders and other tech built in. You can buy small used harmonic drives on ebay. A friend of mine has actually used them in a large home built mount.

There is no doubt that the application of these drives to imaging system hardware has many advantages over conventional worm and wheel geared drives. A well established application of the drives is seen in the robotic arms used in automotive production lines,

I agree with you that the harmonic drive mounts such as the Chronos are fascinating (and have history), but the gearless direct drive technology mounts from companies such as ASA are of even more interest.

AlexN · #28 24-12-2009, 06:54 PM

Zaps - Excuse the sarcastic tone of my previous post.. its christmas eve.. I've had a few...

I have a few more things to say though..

1 - I'm not jumping to the defence of my expensive toy.. I don't have a PME, and wouldnt buy one even if I had the money. I simply don't require a mount of that size or calibre, Im a kid, playing with telescopes, not a professional imager.. An AP900 is on the cards in 2 years or so...

2 - From what I've read (as of maybe 2 weeks ago) ASA mounts have been shipped to certain customers for testing purposes in a remote observatory environment. As I said on another forum, I eagerly await results from the mounts.. As yet I've seen nothing.. If you have links to images of the setup, links to verified unguided exposures and PE graphs etc, I'd be stoked to have a look at what the mount can do.

3 - Yea yea, Professionals might be benefiting from direct drive mounts as we speak. We are not, and we are not likely to for some time. At last glance the DDM60 was going to be nearly as expensive as the PME. Seems you're getting a lot less mount for your money - and as I said before, it would be utter stupidity to buy one of these mounts on their spec sheet alone. I guess thats the second call for the links to real world results I mentioned earlier...

I have no agenda or need to defend my choice of mount.. my entire imaging setup (including mount) weighs less than the PME.. Clearly my needs fall well below the mounts being talked about here. I have however looked into the results from a lot of the pro/semi-pro setups available. And from what I have seen, in REAL WORLD results, the AP and SB mounts are the current leaders in the amateur/semi-pro/pro imaging field.

Again, the Chronos - I've not seen results from the mount. I'm not saying the results dont exist, just saying I havent seen them. I would be VERY interested in results form the chronos, As if every sci-fi fan doesnt want one of those purely because it looks like a robotic arm swinging their scope around the observatory!

Zaps · #29 24-12-2009, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexN

Zaps - Excuse the sarcastic tone of my previous post.. its christmas eve.. I've had a few...

No problemo!

ASA have links to a few private astrophotography websites which showcase the results achieved by those using their equipment, including the mounts. Also there are several German language videos on YouTube posted by private users.

One thing to bear in mind is that if nobody took a chance with new technology then we'd never have new technology to play with. When the PME was introduced, many claimed that they were unproven and untested, therefore not worth the cost.

What's that old saying? "The King is dead! Long live the King!"

Edit to add that I am not in any way connected with ASA other than being a prospective customer. The Astelco NTM-500 direct drive mount would be top of my list if I could afford it, but, alas, I can't. The ASA mounts are within my grasp, so that's what I'm planning to buy. But it's the direct drive technology which interests me, not the brand name. The results coming in from NTM-500 users totally prove the value of direct drive and how it is 'the writing on the wall' for gear-based systems.

netwolf · #30 24-12-2009, 07:34 PM

Direct Drive is a promising technology and there are Inventors out there trying to make the affordable. Have a read of this
http://www.siderealtechnology.com/Di...InProgress.pdf

But this technolgy is not out yet and as such if we concern ourselves with currently avaialble then the PME, AP and Tak mounts are amongs the best there is. Parallax also make some awesome mounts, which use the AP GTO controller. There is also the bigger Mathias mounts.

But for the Remote or Permanent observatory setup the PME and AP currently seem to be the most used. In the remote arena the PME seems to be much more prefered.

The one thing I really like abou the Tak's is how they are as precise as the others but with so much smaller worm gears for the same loads. PME,AP, Losmandy and others seem to have quet large RA/DEC Worm Gears. But the Tak seems to make do with smaller ones. A TAK with the AP GTO system would be a nice combo.

Spec. EM-500
R.A. gear diameter (material) 149 mm/144 teeth (bronze)
DEC. gear diameter (material) 149 mm/144 teeth (bronze)

Capacity is 90lbs but said to be able to cary 120lbs on some sites.
That places it in the same league as a AP900.

AP 900 spec
R.A. worm wheel
7.2" (18.3cm), 225 tooth aluminum
Declination worm wheel
6" (15.2cm), 225 tooth aluminum

Smaller less teath similar if not higher capacity. The only downside is the ~13-14000USD price tag.

AlexN · #31 24-12-2009, 08:28 PM

Its funny how someone can come in and elegantly say what I've been trying to ramble out...

Well done Fahim... Its good to see someone who is capable of coherent thought is on a similar wavelength to myself

I agree - the Tak mounts do seem to offer similar performance to mounts that are quite a bit bigger, the price is a downside as you say... for the cost of the EM-500 you could have the AP1200 + counterweights, pier, dovetail adapter plate of choice... and similar performance. The big difference would be size, and the AP1200's higher capacity.

Yes I forgot to mention the Mathis Instruments mounts earlier, they too make some awesome mounts in the upper end of the scale, and their offshoot company Mountain Instruments with the MI-250. The Mathis mounts I believe use the AP GTO handset, where as the MI-250 can be used with either the AP GTO system or the Losmandy Gemini system...

netwolf · #32 24-12-2009, 09:26 PM

Alex, i still think we should not count out the ASA mounts, but as you say they are yet to be seen or head from. Just as in the Imaging arena world the introduction of Webcams has changed the arena i think so will the direct drive technology. Also i would like to see some development in the are of new mount designs like the Alt, Alt, Az mount which can negate field rotation, the equations have been up on Mel Bartels pages for some time. There was one chap making a prototype but its all gone quiet. Not having to polar align would be a nice innovation.

http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/ThreeAxisMounts.html

Sorry if i have ventured of topic.

A telescope mount to me to be the most simple part of theh whole system. When you consider the Optics seem more involved. The mount seems so much so less yet people say invest more in the mount. Sureley mounts could be made more cheaply and if Quality is controlled (think made in Japan before and after TQM). Some few new mounts i have seen crop up seem to also want to charge as much as the top guys. Is this simply because they can? Or are they trying to make all thee money back in a few sales? Would it not be easier to outsource the manufacturing of the parts and just do the assembly with Quality control.

Regards
Fahim

Ken · #33 24-12-2009, 09:37 PM

For get direct drive where are the fork mounts out there the pro's gave away using German equatorials mounts 100 years ago. I would rather drink hot beer than do a meridian flip in the middle of a imaging run.
clear skies Ken

AlexN · #34 24-12-2009, 09:45 PM

To venture a little further off topic, You know what needs to be done? Amateur aimed equatorial fork mounts with relatively high quality gearing and tracking...

Equatorial forks are the way to go for an advanced imaging system, meridian flips are such a pain in the backside... wouldn't it be fantastic to have a small fork mount (say, the size and capacity rating of a G11) to strap your imaging system to... Lock it onto a target at dusk, and go out and collect your data at dawn... no interuptions, no flips with messy re-centering and rotation to be aware of, no balance differences from east to west imaging... just tracking straight through... That would be golden...

Mathis make big EQ forks, as do one or two other companies, but nothing you would consider to be within the grasp of an amateur.. For an amateur, your best bet is modifying an LX200 mount to carry something smaller, and as we are all aware, they are definitely not the highest accuracy mounts available!

AlexN · #35 24-12-2009, 09:46 PM

Hahah Ken beat me to the punch there!

netwolf · #36 25-12-2009, 01:09 AM

I saw this on CN yesterday and it is just awesom what this guy has built himself.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthrea...v=#Post2195854

This is just on thread of his on the EQ Single arm Fork mount he has made using Losmady worm gears, and Ioptron Gotostar (the older model) servo system.

Also look at his Crescent shaped Alt/Az mount that is methinks a neat solution to viewing at Zenith with large Binos.

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthrea...v=#Post2131270

He really likes them Binos.

This is what i like about the Losmandy mount you can buy almost every part as a spare and fix the mount, or build your own mount.

Regards
Fahim

AlexN · #37 25-12-2009, 01:35 AM

Fahim - Thats awesome... I wish I had the skills to make something like that.. I was looking at the HEQ5 earlier in the evening wondering if I could modify it to have a single fork arm... I can't imagine it would be too difficult to do.. however I'd want to test it out on an old EQ5 first I think..

Moon (James) · #38 25-12-2009, 09:43 AM

Quote:

One thing to bear in mind is that if nobody took a chance with new technology then we'd never have new technology to play with.

This is very true and we all benefit from the risks taken by early adopters. I do hope the ASA mounts + scopes take off, and that ASA remains financially viable in the long term. The results posted on the ASA Yahoo group are really amazing.

Zaps · #39 25-12-2009, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by netwolf

But this technolgy is not out yet and as such if we concern ourselves with currently avaialble then the PME, AP and Tak mounts are amongs the best there is.

Your opinion would surely surprise all those people currently using direct drive mounts such as made by ASA, Astelco, and others.

netwolf · #40 25-12-2009, 10:52 AM

Zaps, I was not aware those mounts were now available. And dont get me wrong i think they would make excellent mounts, can you point to any peer reviews that have been done of this mount. In theory there are many benfits to this technology.

Edit:
I also think were this technology will excel is in permanent large telescope and large Dob installations. Where the removal for the nead of gear reduction will be a big help.

I just saw the DDM85 is listed on OPT Corp for ~18000USD.
I think though I like the braking system that is included in the NMT-500, at the hihg speeds you really want some brakes to go with.