Go Back   IceInSpace > General Astronomy > Astronomy and Amateur Science
Register FAQ Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread
  #21  
Old 09-10-2009, 05:21 PM
Nesti (Mark)
Registered User

Nesti is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 799
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghsmith45 View Post
I think I detect a theme here: "I can't do it, so it must be crap"
Dunno about "a theme", but I have a quote...

Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.
Nikola Tesla
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-10-2009, 05:58 PM
renormalised's Avatar
renormalised (Carl)
No More Infinities

renormalised is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Townsville
Posts: 9,698
Tesla hit the nail right on the head.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-10-2009, 08:02 PM
xelasnave's Avatar
xelasnave
Gravity does not Suck

xelasnave is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tabulam
Posts: 17,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghsmith45 View Post
I think I detect a theme here: "I can't do it, so it must be crap"
for me its...

" i cant do it..oh crap"
alex
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-10-2009, 08:24 PM
KenGee's Avatar
KenGee (Kenith Gee)
Registered User

KenGee is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Laura
Posts: 599
Chemist and biologist are just glorified accounts it is all physic's in the end. :-)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-10-2009, 10:18 AM
sjastro's Avatar
sjastro
Registered User

sjastro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,926
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesti View Post
Dunno about "a theme", but I have a quote...

Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality.
Nikola Tesla
Tesla was unaware of phenomenlogical theories.

Here is an example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particl..._phenomenology

Steven
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-10-2009, 02:16 PM
renormalised's Avatar
renormalised (Carl)
No More Infinities

renormalised is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Townsville
Posts: 9,698
Smile

That's true, but he was still right. Phenomenology is nothing more than an attempt to bridge that gulf between the physics "fantasy" and the real world. It's only as successful as those who can understand how to make that bridge, in which case it's the "egg heads" trying to help the "hands on" guys to get the jist of their brand of hieroglyphics
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-10-2009, 06:39 PM
sjastro's Avatar
sjastro
Registered User

sjastro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,926
Quote:
Originally Posted by renormalised View Post
That's true, but he was still right. Phenomenology is nothing more than an attempt to bridge that gulf between the physics "fantasy" and the real world. It's only as successful as those who can understand how to make that bridge, in which case it's the "egg heads" trying to help the "hands on" guys to get the jist of their brand of hieroglyphics
In particle physics the "hands on guys" or experimental physicists are very much guided by the theory. The theory not only predicts an outcome but also how an experiment needs to be devised in order to achieve the outcome. That's where phenomenology comes into the picture.

The LHC is a good example. Although the Standard Model does not accurately predict the mass of the Higgs Boson we know the minimum energy required to perform the test. Also the theory predicts how the Higgs boson will decay which will help the hands on guys "where to look".

Steven
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 11-10-2009, 08:26 PM
Zaps
Registered User

Zaps is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 349
Math is everything and everything is math. Like it or not.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 12-10-2009, 02:08 PM
xelasnave's Avatar
xelasnave
Gravity does not Suck

xelasnave is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Tabulam
Posts: 17,003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaps View Post
Math is everything and everything is math. Like it or not.
Yes indeed but can you eat it?

alex
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 15-10-2009, 07:18 PM
renormalised's Avatar
renormalised (Carl)
No More Infinities

renormalised is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Townsville
Posts: 9,698
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
Yes indeed but can you eat it?

alex

Make sure you get your daily serve of integers and derivatives, but watch out for those square roots...they can give you indigestion
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 15-10-2009, 09:18 PM
Nesti (Mark)
Registered User

Nesti is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 799
Quote:
Originally Posted by renormalised View Post
Make sure you get your daily serve of integers and derivatives, but watch out for those square roots...they can give you indigestion
oh P_L_E_A_S_E !!!
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 15-10-2009, 09:24 PM
sjastro's Avatar
sjastro
Registered User

sjastro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,926
Quote:
Originally Posted by renormalised View Post
Make sure you get your daily serve of integers and derivatives, but watch out for those square roots...they can give you indigestion
And wash it down with monstrous moonshine.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 15-10-2009, 11:44 PM
renormalised's Avatar
renormalised (Carl)
No More Infinities

renormalised is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Townsville
Posts: 9,698
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjastro View Post
And wash it down with monstrous moonshine.
All in moderation, of course
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 18-10-2009, 08:40 PM
marki's Avatar
marki
Waiting for next electron

marki is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenGee View Post
Chemist and biologist are just glorified accounts it is all physic's in the end. :-)
Physics like maths are only tools to serve useful sciences like chemistry, biology and geology. Without our work physics would not have any funding to come up with half the crap it does. Pure fantasy, no more no less. The way I see it is Albert and friends opened up a can of worms letting the theory mad maths geeks loose in science. They have been giving physicists a right butt kicking for years and all they can do is hop around holding their bottoms.

Mark

Last edited by marki; 24-10-2009 at 05:30 PM. Reason: Needed to tone it down some.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 22-10-2009, 02:43 PM
snas's Avatar
snas (Stuart)
Registered User

snas is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: wellington point
Posts: 131
As a veterinarian, I wear a number of different hats:
1. Physician; I diagnose and treat illness
2. Surgeon; I physically remove disease, repair fractures etc
3. Anaesthetist
4. Pathologist
etc etc
You get the idea.
The science at the base of all that I do is biology. So, as a veterinarian, I am perhaps best regarded as being something of a specialised biologist.

But what IS biology? When we get down to the question of what actually makes biology tick, it is the chemistry of life, or biochemistry. That anaesthetic drug I inject works because it blocks various receptors in the brain. My patient gets sick because the virus in its gut caused abnormal biochemical reactions to occur leading to vomiting, diarrhoea, loss of vrious electrolytes which in turn has other effects in other parts of my patient's body.

So it appears that biology comes down to being the result of a massive complex of chemical reactions that come together to prodcue life and all that goes with life.

So perhaps I am a biochemist.

But then again, what is chemistry? What is it that makes all of those chemical reactions occur, whether that be occurring in the body of my patient or in a beaker of acid to which I have placed a piece of metal (not because that has anything to do with biology, but just because I wanted to see what happened)? Why does one atom of this react with 2 atoms of that? why does one sodium ion like to get together with one chloride ion to produce table salt? What makes the NaCl molecule stay together as a molecule and not fly off as two separate ions? Or why does it fly off as two separate ions?

Physics! The electromagnetic force between the two ions, the strong and weak nuclear forces. As for gravity, I'm nt sure how much of a role that has to play in biology. But the thing is that it's physics that makes the chemistry happen which makes the life happen which gives me a patient to treat.

As far as I can tell the maths comes in as a way of describing the physics, it's the story (equation) of how and why the physics works the way that it does. But then, what would I know, I'm just a vet!

So, in reply to Zaps comment of "maths is everything and everything is maths", I have been known to say the same thing about physics. Not going to argue about which, if either, of those statements is correct.

Stuart
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 22-10-2009, 06:10 PM
sjastro's Avatar
sjastro
Registered User

sjastro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,926
The 1963 Nobel Prize for physics winner Eugene Wigner summarized maths and physics as follows:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unr...tural_Sciences

On the other hand for non-physical sciences, maths is seen differently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreaso...of_Mathematics
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 23-10-2009, 06:16 PM
Nesti (Mark)
Registered User

Nesti is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 799
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjastro View Post
The 1963 Nobel Prize for physics winner Eugene Wigner summarized maths and physics as follows:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unr...tural_Sciences

On the other hand for non-physical sciences, maths is seen differently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unreaso...of_Mathematics
How would Richard Feynman reply to something like that....
Let's ask him??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMDTcMD6pOw
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 23-10-2009, 07:01 PM
sjastro's Avatar
sjastro
Registered User

sjastro is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,926
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesti View Post
How would Richard Feynman reply to something like that....
Let's ask him??? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMDTcMD6pOw
A shame it's truncated.

However there is enough of it for certain individuals to take note!

Steven
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 23-10-2009, 09:38 PM
Nesti (Mark)
Registered User

Nesti is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 799
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjastro View Post
A shame it's truncated.

However there is enough of it for certain individuals to take note!

Steven
Actually Steven, what I really wanted to post was the link to Feynman's lecture introduction on 'The Relationship Between Physics and Mathematics'...it's roll on the floor material, but I can't find it.

Would have been the perfect follow-up to your post...Doh!
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 24-10-2009, 05:08 PM
marki's Avatar
marki
Waiting for next electron

marki is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,427
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjastro View Post
A shame it's truncated.

However there is enough of it for certain individuals to take note!

Steven
Ah yes. I see you have it all worked out .

Just like the last time, I guess I should steer my students away from physics as there is obviously no need for further research let alone asking the question "have we got it wrong"? .

Steven I do understand the importance of mathematics in scientific models (believe it or not chemists have been known to use it on the odd occasion) but I also have a very healthy sceptisim towards what are essentially radical ideas some of which cannot be tested with any rigour. Show me the empirical evidence and I will become a true believer.

Mark

Last edited by marki; 24-10-2009 at 05:20 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +10. The time is now 04:53 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.8.7 | Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertisement
Bintel
Advertisement