A simple math question.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Well...gotta go get some lunch, then I'm into study (mostly) for the afternoon. Steven might take this up with you for a bit.

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Thanks Steven for your consideration of this matter.

I guess I can answer both questions this way.
I want to reasonably quantify what physical intereractions are possible at a point..any point.
I doubt if all particles will have the same mass nor will all "energies" have the same energy and my effort is really to quantify what may be available to push and bend the space time grid... I dont know enough as you know and I appologise for not being able to express my approach and intention with more detail... but on the up side as I said I have a longer list of questions to think about.

I suppose to a degree if we take open space as the place for our sphere it would be reasonable to expect a flow of energy and particles from all directions..if the flow is diminished it will be primarily because there is something in the way of this flow... and so the flow will bend the space time grid (I visualise) to the "something" ...and so I hope to relate the idea to GR rather than say GR is a waste of time because I really dont think that... but I get preoccupied with how things work on a physical level .. I dont understand GR very well but It seems it claims no force is responsible for its genius but I wonder about what forces are at play.. GR I think does not rely on attraction or push whereas I seek the reason space behaves in the way we observe...
I felt space was a push environment and that is why I predicted the pioneer would slow up as really in effect once outside the heliosphere they are greatly exposed to "push" from all sides and that should finally have the effect of slowing them ..I have not looked at them for a while or if they still get signals as to where they are but the last time I looked they were slowing... as I expected given my views on the "pressure" of the open space they have moved into.

I thought if I could quantify the pressure even in a limited degree I could maybe suggest how much more they would slow and set the prediction to a tune of math support and a point in time where they should be able to be observed at the new slower speed..assuming they are still trackable etc etc.

But in truth it is beyond me I suspect given the quantity of information that must go into making a model of my view.

Also I felt the sphere approach may be able to be modelled on a computer so one could place things like galaxies etc in the model to see if the problem of faster orbital speeds of out lying stars could be solved by a push model... if such a model showed behaviour similar to observations I feel that would give the push universe a little hope..or kill it..which suits me more actually in so far as I could think about somethiing else for a change.

alex

Alex,

All I am doing is giving you a mathematical equation based on your thought experiment and that Newtonian gravity doesn't exist.

I'm not endorsing your beliefs.

To make the maths simpler let's assume the push particles are all the same mass. This is not such an unreasonable assumption if the push particle is a fundamental particle in which case they would all have the same mass.

Since Newtonian gravity doesn't exist in your model I don't have to worry about a Newtonian gravitational potential inside the sphere messing up the energy of the particle as it moves inside the sphere.

Since Newtonian gravitational potentials don't exist neither does GR. The geometry of the space inside the sphere is perfectly flat. So I know the particle will travel in a straight line as it passes through the centre.

Since there are "windows" on the sphere, a flux model is not applicable as the particles are not actually hitting anything as they pass freely through the sphere towards the centre.

As there are no collisions and no Newtonian potentials, the energy of the particle is its kinetic energy (KE).

By definition KE= 0.5xmxv^2. where m is the mass, v is the velocity.

Since your sphere has a diameter of 300,000 km the distance of any window to the centre is 150,000 km. All I need to do is measure the time interval it takes the particle to move from the window to the centre. Even if the particle is traveling at very high speeds approaching c I don't have to worry about time dilation as I am measuring the time interval in the spheres frame of reference.

The equation is calculated as follows.

The kinetic energy of particle a is KEa=0.5xmx(150000/Ta)^2.
The kinetic energy of particle b is KEb=0.5xmx(150000/Tb)^2

Ta, Tb are the time intervals of each particle to reach the centre.

Hence KEa/KEb= Tb^2/Ta^2

In other words the ratio of the KE's of particles a and b equals the inverse ratio of the the squares of their time intervals.

So for example if particle "a" takes half the time to reach the centre compared to particle "b", it must have 4 times the KE.
Using this equation you would be able show the distribution of the KE of all particles.

Now any smart physicist will immediately notice a flaw in the argument. I stated the push particle was a fundamental particle. A physicist will argue the velocity should also be a property of the fundamental particle, in which case all particles should have the same velocity (same KE). Otherwise the simulated effects of gravity will vary from place to place in the Universe.
Similarly the same case would occur if the mass varied.

So I'm afraid the push gravity model doesn't look terribly promising.

Regards

Steven

[xelasnave]

Steven thank you again.
velocity is of course a major consideration but on the positive we are dealing on a single level with particles so small a variance in velocity will not contribute a major change to the overall outcome.

However what I am realising is that there are so many particles and "energy" sources the difficulty will be setting an upper limit.

AND how busy must space be... at a single point to calculate everything that may pass by is a major task...

Now dont give up on the push universe ..it is the elusive theory of everything so it is not just going to fall in our laps..we need to be patient and work hard ..one day may not be enough time is what I am saying.

Thinking about it I would find it difficult to imagine that push or radiation energy is not a relevant factor in considering the properties of space..and even though others seem to have it all worked out why could we not improve on the current thinking.

But seriously thank you for taking your time on this. I highly value everything you say as I try and listen to folk who appear reasonable and competenant in their approach to any issue.

I have to go again and will think long and hard upon all that has been said today.

alex

[renormalised (Carl)]

Problem Alex.....assuming these particles are fundamental, then they must have the same properties of mass, velocity, KE/PE, spin, charge or whatever. Any variations in these parameters means they're not fundamental particles. In order for your theory to hold water, so to speak, they need to be fundamental particle, otherwise the gravitational metric for your model will change depending on your location within spacetime. If that was to occur, then nothing would appear as it does. Stars wouldn't shine, planets wouldn't form and gravity could take on any value it liked. The universe wouldn't exist...period. Depending on the metric it would either collapse ot fly apart.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Problem Alex.....assuming these particles are fundamental, then they must have the same properties of mass, velocity, KE/PE, spin, charge or whatever. Any variations in these parameters means they're not fundamental particles. In order for your theory to hold water, so to speak, they need to be fundamental particle, otherwise the gravitational metric for your model will change depending on your location within spacetime. If that was to occur, then nothing would appear as it does. Stars wouldn't shine, planets wouldn't form and gravity could take on any value it liked. The universe wouldn't exist...period. Depending on the metric it would either collapse ot fly apart.

Ok I am convinced so lets go with a fundamental particle as I dont want the stars not to shine just to get my theory up and running.

So we need a model using a standard approach I gather you suggest.
If we do that it really makes things simple and that is what I sort of suggested earlier ..in order to test the idea if we had a computer model that simply stayed on a basic level it would show if stars would comply with observation or not..only problem is I cant built a computer model..yet.

thank again

alex

[xelasnave]

I took the time to look at some utube stuff lectures from Berkley and think it is so wonderful that a mug can access such stuff. How good is the net.. never did I think I could attend a lecture at Berkley.. but it was great... views of where physics is going and overview on the standard model... great stuff.
I liked this....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AM7Sn...eature=related
alex

[renormalised (Carl)]

That's the problem, Alex. Your particles (hence, LeSage's) can't be fundamental particles. Look at Steven's post above. The derived formulae for KE (Kinetic Energy) for your system bear that out. You can't have differing values for KE or velocity for any particles, if they're fundamental. They must all have the same characteristics, no variance at all. In your model, the constants are variables (different KE/velocities per particle), so as you change those conditions, so the conditions for gravity change per location. It's a contradiction in terms.

[xelasnave]

Thanks Carl... could we not have gravity change per location then please..the pioneer suggests that the gravity expected is "different" and the need for "dark matter" would appear to suggest a similar posibility.
I really feel we are getting close here.
Great lecture on utube I hope your took a look ..it was given by David Gross a Noble Prize winner no less.

alex

[renormalised (Carl)]

Have you looked at MOND (Modified Newtonian Dynamics) at all?? It could be why there's a discrepancy in the velocity vectors of the Pioneer probes.

But that's yet to be proven. Let's just say it's a bit controversial.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

... could we not have gravity change per location then please..the pioneer suggests that the gravity expected is "different" and the need for "dark matter" would appear to suggest a similar posibility.

No, not to the extent that what you have proposed it does. That would entail a gross changes in the value of the gravitational constant, the strength of gravity c.f. to the other forces and would mean the abandonment of the inverse square law on a macroscopic scale. That would mean chaos.

What the presence of dark matter suggests is that there's a factor which is creating the impression that there's more mass present unseen than seen. It could have an effect on the Pioneer probes, but only if there were some concentration of dark matter close by.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Have you looked at MOND (Modified Newtonian Dynamics) at all?? It could be why there's a discrepancy in the velocity vectors of the Pioneer probes.

But that's yet to be proven. Let's just say it's a bit controversial.

Yes I have looked at it on various sites ....but to me it seems to be trying to adjust things rather than a fundamentally different approach..which is reasonable for science... I of course as a non scientist can step outside and claim ignorance if I move to far away from the norm.
Thinking about all the stuff that must be racing by way out there one wonders how they can move at all... considering how many bits may pass point even without specific quantification but as a guess gives one the feeling space is so not empty...

AND seeing that lecture at least tells me that the game is far from over ... and that there is some hope to unify the forces ... now in all that lecture I had to take what he said as reasonable without a math proof on the assumption that he and others must have done it and that as far as they have gone the math is valid.... most enjoyable thread.
alex

[sjastro]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Thanks Carl... could we not have gravity change per location then please..the pioneer suggests that the gravity expected is "different" and the need for "dark matter" would appear to suggest a similar posibility.

Alex in the context of your model the gravity change is not only a function of location but is time dependent. Even at a fixed location "gravity" will change with time if the KE of the push particles are not equal.

With regards to the Pioneer anomaly there are a variety of explanations.
The explanation that makes most sense to me is that the Pioneer probes have acquired an electric charge and are therefore also subject to electromagnetic forces. Being bombarded by cosmic and solar radiation is the likely mechanism for the Pioneers acquiring the charge.

Steven

[xelasnave]

Good morning Steven.
I must say what a wonderful day it is. I have just got onto my old boat at the mooring and except for the noice from the free way it is as close to being perfect as one could imagine.
My point is good things happen to good people...so I am semi delussional but boy am I going to go with that one today.
AND most of the reason why life is going so well is this site ..it really is the best...the people are the best.

Yes the time thing... it is always a problem...but I have come to a realisation...different professions approach problems differently but I am going to seize on the way an engineer approaches a problem..with sheer glee if you have ever noticed..they love the chalenge of making something work where there is a seemingly impossible technical problem to overcome...

AND so the time thing...we have time a a extreme focus because of general relativity and I have no doubt that this is a particularly important area to work upon however I suspect there is even more about time that we dont understand.
Time is a human contrivance when you think about it and I have said in the past that for nature time is a mechanism where everything does not happen at once and to thru some push into the mix I suspect that the flow of time is directly related to the maximum "speed" that stuff can do what it has to do whilst being subject to other stuff that in doing what it has to do alters the flow and the rate we call time...

So with faith unshaken in my belief I suspect that it will still all go together.

AS to the pioneer I must say I like that explanation it is more reasonable than leaking material and to a degree not dissimilar my view that they provide an opportunity to realise there are obviously other forces at play than that at first were not considered.

The part I think is probably not reasonable is the aspect that solar radiation is at play..I suspect the edge of the heliosphere is think represents a boundary for the Sun such that its contribution to charging may not be the real aspect to consider...certainly inside the solar system solar charging would be a possibility one would think but I suspect popping out of the solar system bubble (thru the heliosphere) could nuetralise that condition...
In open space it is my belief that they are indeed being bombarded so there is where I like the explanation you favour.
but I see that explanation as giving more hope than less...but then there is little that I will ever let set me back again.

I watched that utube lecture again and the funny thing is "they" and I use that term this time with respect and affection have so much worked out and things they can measure to increadible small size ..well everything about the theoretical physics quest is wonderful to see... and as much as I have bagged string theory for some of what I see as wild ideas...er super symetry as well...the fact is it is all good as we cant have so many minds working on the theory of everything and the unification of the forces and somethiing not drop...it was also very encouraging to hear the addmissions of what they dont know and the difficulties ahead as well as the hopes... He is a wonderful presentor and ambassador for theoretical physics.

I was interested in their view of vacuum energy and I find strangely supportive of my ideas but I cant verbalise why at all.

AND as to dark matter and dark energy ..as much as I bag dark matter it would seem that if I consider my "flow" it must contain a huge mass overall ... and my idea is really simply that there is a flow of matter and energy (which we can treat the same thanks to the great man himself E=MC^2 tells us we can do that) is so vast out there that it provides a pressure..an external pressure (rather than say push) and certainly this pressure can be observed by the unexpected motion of stars and the holding together of galaxies that by our sums will tell us they must fly apart... but I am starting to somehow see a picture that I wish I could show to other humans for their views... well text is great but I know others find it hard to see stars as anything more than a dot in the sky whereas they are sortof like huge bubbles that are as many sizes as the distance you choose to observe them from... we see things in the real world in perspective... even with our scopes we are taking converging rays to squeeze them down a narrow hole into our mind...and we "see" so little.. what we see is great but imagine being able to view everything using the full Electromagntic spectrum... it would and does look so much different...
in my minds eye I sortta see things like that with a complexity I often wonder about ..I visualize a packet of light as if it were a galaxy such is the complexity I build into my view of it...
So as a result I think math is simple not in the doing but in what it can do...My necktop can construct visualisations the would spin out Steven Spberg I bet.

I was thingking also folk dont like thinking that light can travel slower or faster but I have been thinking that even light must have to contend with all that is out there ..and it does no doubt..gravitational lensing that tells us such...

Sorry to rant I am just very happy with everything ...

alex

[Paul Haese]

Simple maths will not suffice in any thought experiment to prove this odd notion that push gravity exists.

Additionally gravity pulls and has been proven to pull in the way matter attacts. There have been countless examples of how gravity works both mathematically and through actual experiments. The use of gravity to increase the speed of probes is one clear example. Using the gravity well of a planet we can accelerate the speed of a probe. Gravity has the power to pull and be used as a sling shot by way of kinetic energy and velocity.

Try learning calculus, then do at least a year of physics and then you will drop this ridiculous notion of push gravity. I know I don't have to read this thread but many other people who don't know better do. You are giving them the wrong idea and making a mockery of physics and all the advances that has transpired from observation and real thought.

I find reading through this just totally wrong. Do you really think that you could possibly prove this without having the maths or genius to make this real? If push to gravity existed then the confirmation of relativity in 1919 solar eclipse where light is bent by a huge gravity field would never have occured. Galaxies are held together by the pull of gravity. The same way this planet is held together by gravity, or you are held to the planets surface. There is no mass that pushes object to colide with a planet. The positioning of satellites in the lagrangian points is also about finding the points where gravity (pull of gravity) of two bodies is equal to each other. If main stream science had got it wrong why do you think that all we have now is possible. Sheer accident could not have happened thousands of times.

Push to gravity is a crock. Please stop pushing this nonsense. No maths, no physics but you have an idea you and only a handful of others think is real. Come on.

[Paul Haese]

Just another thing to add and you should consider. To escape from Earth you need to reach escape velocity which is a function of the mass of an object. Earths escape velocity is around 11km/sec. If an object fails to reach this speed it falls back to earth. This is the force of gravity in action it pulls. There is nothing that pushes it back down. That is simple Newtonian gravity in action. Although now relativistic gravity is the more accepted theory the notion is for attraction not pushing.

[Robh (Rob)]

The push gravity model assumes an "ether" of randomly moving particles e.g. neutrinos. These particles exert pressure on bodies and the shielding of one body from another is what produces the gravitational effects. It is the physics of the push gravity model that lets it down ...
1. For it to work, particle collisions must be inelastic. Collisions of particles will result in excessive heating of bodies. An inexhaustible supply of particles are needed to maintain the ether.
2. Motions of bodies in the ether will result in frictional drag. This effect would reduce the distance between the Sun and the Earth.
3. Gravitational shielding, the basis of the theory, is inconsistent in that the shielding effects of many bodies does not produce the same gravitational forces as their overall mass implies.
4. Gravitational aberration occurs due to the finite speed of gravity. For example, as the Earth orbits the Sun, there is a time delay due to ether particles arriving from the Sun at older positions but not having arrived at newer positions. This acts to accelerate objects away from each other.

Regards, Rob

[renormalised (Carl)]

The push gravity model assumes an "ether" of randomly moving particles e.g. neutrinos

Yes...LeSage called them "ultramundane particles"...apparently whose origins lay outside of the Universe, wherever that might be!!!. That puts the kybosh on the theory straight away.

Not only that, but when you think about it, the flow of the ether, the presence of these particles, would cause weird optical aberrations with light traveling through that ether. Not only from the changing nature of the gravitational field from point to point in such an universe, but also from diffraction caused by photons bouncing around off those particles.

[Paul Haese]

The concept of the ether has also been banished for many years. Space is a vacuum. Sorry you are not going to get away with that either.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Paul Haese

Simple maths will not suffice in any thought experiment to prove this odd notion that push gravity exists.

Additionally gravity pulls and has been proven to pull in the way matter attacts. There have been countless examples of how gravity works both mathematically and through actual experiments. The use of gravity to increase the speed of probes is one clear example. Using the gravity well of a planet we can accelerate the speed of a probe. Gravity has the power to pull and be used as a sling shot by way of kinetic energy and velocity.

Try learning calculus, then do at least a year of physics and then you will drop this ridiculous notion of push gravity. I know I don't have to read this thread but many other people who don't know better do. You are giving them the wrong idea and making a mockery of physics and all the advances that has transpired from observation and real thought.

I find reading through this just totally wrong. Do you really think that you could possibly prove this without having the maths or genius to make this real? If push to gravity existed then the confirmation of relativity in 1919 solar eclipse where light is bent by a huge gravity field would never have occured. Galaxies are held together by the pull of gravity. The same way this planet is held together by gravity, or you are held to the planets surface. There is no mass that pushes object to colide with a planet. The positioning of satellites in the lagrangian points is also about finding the points where gravity (pull of gravity) of two bodies is equal to each other. If main stream science had got it wrong why do you think that all we have now is possible. Sheer accident could not have happened thousands of times.

Push to gravity is a crock. Please stop pushing this nonsense. No maths, no physics but you have an idea you and only a handful of others think is real. Come on.

Thank you Paul for taking the time to share your views on this matter.
I enjoyed reading your strong views on the matter.

I dont wish to argue with you for the sake of it nor try and change your views but owe you a considered responce.

I fail to see the difference in the "simple math" approach to attempting to quantify the possible energies at a point and the approach Hershel adopted to work out the energy of the Sun... and although his method could be seen to have flaws that would not give an exact estimate of the Sun's output it was recognised as a valid attempt and his estimate of the Sun's energy calculated by such a simple approach was and I believe still is hailed as good science).

If attraction is the force at play then it will be easy to find how such a mechanism works one would think and yet I have never found any expalnation or reasoning or experimental demonstration proving the force of attraction exists and how this force is communicated...it was my frustration in failing to find any explanation or experimental proof of attraction that lead me to consider that it may not be a force at all and that some other system was at play.

If you can point me to any experiment that shows "how" gravity works I will be absolutely grateful but I suggest that although there is much material on gravity via General Relativity and Newton's wonderful work I find no material that say how gravity works.

Newton avoided the issue of what was the force of Gravity by saying "it was the force of God" and General Relativity seems not to attribute a force at all other than a reference that "it is the property of space time"...yes all nice but to both I ask "how does it work and what force is at play".

If you wish to list how gravity works to pull space craft to sling shot etc I say that I have no difficulty with all of that and am absolutely aware of such systems and approaches however I see no evidence in any of these systems that shows that attraction is at play or if it is how attraction works.

If attraction is so present in all of the things you give it credit for then I am also sure that you can offer an experiment which shows how attraction works...even if it is very complicated I promise I will read it.

I have learnt a little calculus and understand it to be the math of limits. AND although it provides very acceptable and close results I note that often it uses a very primative initial approach to establish its formuleas... How do we determine the area of a circle... yes indeed but how did they arrive at that most important little symbol... I think it was by adopting an approach initially to divide a circle into many many many small triangles... and although they never quiet gave the exact answer the answer can be so close that the miniscule difference is able to be ignored...

Just because I dont roll over and except everything before me please do not think I do not learn physics... how much do you think I read on physics before I had the confidence to question certain things... and dont say the math the math I say physics builds on certain principles and the math offers "proof" but all these principles must be and are capable of understanding without the presentor offering the authority of the math proof... as a principle water "boils" at 100 degreees I am prepared to accept such without the math but if I am not I will review the math...
All I am saying is math is important but it is authority for a point not the point itself.

The lecture I refered to above covered where theoretical physics has been and where it is going and in that entire lecture not once was mathamatical proof offerred for any of the propositions to prove to the audience his statements were valid... and all including me was happy in the reasonably secure knowledge that a Noble peace prize winner would have done his home work..

I probably am less incompetent in physics that my social style will communicate but certainly I have not done more than high school physics (but I did top the year at my school in Physics and also Chemistry) but I feel comfortable studying physics... in principle.

AND I am sure not all the folk who have an understanding of general relativity have ever studies the 11 field equations but simple rely upon the validity of the foundations stones of the theory.. as they should be reasonably expected to do..like me accepting the general premises in the lecture refered to above.

I am sorry that you think that any thing I say makes a mockery of physics I do not see it that way.
You must think by me following the notion of push gravity it shows a lack of faith in the current science but I say that is not the case ... and I know for a fact there is no work on how gravity works that is simply an excepted and inarguable fact.

The cutting edge it seems is the speculation upon the graviton...and it is speculation at this point... we have reached a point where they are looking for the particle interaction but lets face it the graviton is a speculation and not one has been found...

I will in future check my thinking to see if it is real thought and also my observations but please give me some credit for knowing more than you think simply because you find my ideas are not presented in a strict pysics formate... we are chatting after all... if I go to the world with a paper I am happy to accept such ...

AS to those who may get the wrong idea I think you give them to little credit for having the ability to think and consider what they are reading.
I mock nothing that is out there other than perhaps except perhaps the movement that caused Newton to offer a no scientific explanation as to the actual force of gravity.

Newton had a mate with the push gravity idea... the church hunted him down and killed him..so given that fact maybe Newton was very clever in his reply.
My hero is Dr Albert Einstein his ideas as to a cosmological constant is one of the factors that had me considering that gravity may be a "repulsive" force... but I will try and be more respectful if you get the impression as it certainly I do not want incorrect impressions in place about me.

You ask if I think I can do it... yes of course I can... maybe not today but if there is one thing I have been taught by all my heros is that when you start out you are nothing more than a fool in everyones eyes and if you offer something different to the norm folk will reject it on the basis that we already know what we know and how can an upstart come up with anything new...well your attitude to me really.. I have no problem with that but my point is your responce is predictable and if I am to get anywhere my responce has to be one of sheer belief that the day will come when I have all the tools to complete my task... now if I dont it is of no concern to me..if I do win well it really wont change much at all... I see no reason why my ideas conflict with Newton or with General Relativity... I only seek a mechanism as to how gravity works... I do not see anything out there that specifically addresses that issue other than the work in string theory ...

The 1919 experiment does not exclude push and I fail to see that a reference to that famous moment should be or could be used to exclude push.. it supports general relativity and I have no problem with general relativity (which I point out started with a thought experiment by a man who at the time would have been seen perhaps as being disrespectful to Newton)...

I think if you look into it you may find that galaxies are indeed held in place by an external force and at the moment accepted science calls that force "dark energy" and as far as I can tell that is a fact not something I made up so if you read up on dark energy you may find someone very smart said that before me...it may be the force that is causing the Universe to expand but they do know it is in effect a "repulsive" force and is of great interest...there are those who feel that the great man himself had an insite upon the necissity oif its prescence when he was considering his cosmological constant... his bigest blunder may in facrt be his greatest insite because I do believe he was at the edge of considering that the force of gravity communicated via a push rather than attraction.

I am not saying main stream has it wrong there is just an important part left out would be the way I would put it.. General relativity is not under threat all I say is the force that bends the space time grid is a flow of energy working in a push system not a system of attraction...because I think attraction does not exist..

I am sorry Paul that you are so upset by what I write and you see it as pushing nonsence and all I can say is I really dont see any harm in it myself.. I think I am reasonable and as far as I can do not make statements that are baseless or ill considered....
I dont think there are a handful of others who agree really I think I am somewhat alone on this..even Ron (site builder) I suspect thinks I am wrong and in an effort to save folk like you reading my stuff set me aside in that place to let me rant and not annoy anyone.

Look I dont care if you think it is crock you are entitled to say and think that and I am sincerely delighted that you are candid and say so.
You force me to consider my position and think of the areas you raise and no doubt later in the day I will go off and read about something you have caused me to think about..and so I thank you and appologise that I upset you but please know I upset everyone and I do not need to be talking about gravity... it is just me I have an unfortunate way ...maybe a mental problem porr social sckill I dont know but I do not set out to annoy folk.

Have a great day.

alex

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Robh

The push gravity model assumes an "ether" of randomly moving particles e.g. neutrinos. These particles exert pressure on bodies and the shielding of one body from another is what produces the gravitational effects. It is the physics of the push gravity model that lets it down ...
1. For it to work, particle collisions must be inelastic. Collisions of particles will result in excessive heating of bodies. An inexhaustible supply of particles are needed to maintain the ether.
2. Motions of bodies in the ether will result in frictional drag. This effect would reduce the distance between the Sun and the Earth.
3. Gravitational shielding, the basis of the theory, is inconsistent in that the shielding effects of many bodies does not produce the same gravitational forces as their overall mass implies.
4. Gravitational aberration occurs due to the finite speed of gravity. For example, as the Earth orbits the Sun, there is a time delay due to ether particles arriving from the Sun at older positions but not having arrived at newer positions. This acts to accelerate objects away from each other.

Regards, Rob

All excellent points for consideration Rob.
Again I dont want to argue and I am not saying anything you raise is wrong or right but as long as you dont think I am being arguementative I will comment on each matter as best I can.. just appreciate that I may not be able to dispose of concerns in a simple reply and know that after I will read on the areas you raise.

Point one.. I agree. I think it may be the reason we have a Corona that is hotter than the surface of the Sun and to date no reasonable explaination why this may be so. It may be this point that offers explaination as to why the center of the Earth is hot... it may be the explanation as to why a critiacl mass of u235 or the like heats up... and this point has been raised before and I do wonder myself if there are places where this heating could be observed and perhaps a link determined..or not determined of course... for a guy with no experimental evidence I think about those crazy ideas... I would think if push works then if one had an extremely large block of anything then it should heat up at the center in much the same wat a neufcler fuel rod does... in otherwords maybe all things have in effect a critical mass...anyways I note I am speculating and know there is good and reliable science that has the atomic bomb working and the power plants and that neither fails to work because they dontr embrace push gravity... but you asked I gave you a responce dont get upset if you dont like it or disagree with it.

2. Should we look to see if that is happening?
Well my prediction that the pioneer would slow is very mush alined to what you suspect must happen with the SUn issue raised... I did think that if space pushed then the pioneer would slow because they would be subject to a drag that was not enecounted until they had left the heliospere and sought to contend with the space outside..which in my view will have more push and therefore drag.
3. Without using math I dont know... I will think about this.
4. Again I cant field that and will think about it.

So sorry I could not field points 3 and 4.

Thanks for pointing them out gives me something to work on and read upon.

alex