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  #21  
Old 22-07-2009, 12:28 PM
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Lumen Miner (Mitchell)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A P Walker View Post
Hi there,

Dont know if you have seen this site http://frank.bol.ucla.edu/almirrors.htm
but it describes very well the process of making an aluminium mirror. Dosent sound any harder than making a standard mirror from glass. I would imagine the same rules apply and a mirror of reasonable apature and focal length would be pretty straight forward for the ATM'er wanting to give this ago. It sure would make a "different" project!
Thanks for the link.
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  #22  
Old 13-01-2012, 07:51 AM
Marcosbaun
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Hello. Some time I've been doing research with aluminum mirrors.
With the technique we developed, many mirrors have been made, all with accuracy better than 1 / 4 lambda, for use in the visual spectrum.
The technique developed by us, differs substantially from that used for the mirror glass. Last year some aluminum mirrors made ​​by us, were presented at ENAST (Annual Meeting of astronomy in Brazil).
Due to the interest in these mirrors, we founded the group:
http://br.groups.yahoo.com/group/ATMmetalmirror/
for all who are interested, can learn the technique and participate in discussions. On my page you can see a Ronchi / Foucault one of the mirrors as well as other photos:
http://marcosbaun.multiply.com/photo...onchi_Foucault

JMBaungartner
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  #23  
Old 13-01-2012, 10:27 AM
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wasyoungonce (Brendan)
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Funny enough I saw an alloy conical mirror 10~12" made by AWADI, back in 90's. AWADI was making submarine and other optical and LASER elements for defence and had a full optical workshop.

Not sure of the alloy used but was told it was milled down to micron accuracy.

The mirror was really a "show piece" not something they regularly made.

I wonder if it has stood up to oxidation?
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  #24  
Old 15-01-2012, 09:06 AM
Marcosbaun
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Using aluminum in good purity, the oxidation is very slow. After polishing, the aluminum naturally creates a layer of aluminum oxide, which serves as protection. I have polished a few years mirrors that are perfect. The aluminum alloy is very important. 2xxx series of alloys containing copper, the faster is oxidation.

JMBaungartner
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  #25  
Old 17-01-2012, 10:22 AM
Poita (Peter)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcosbaun View Post
Hello. Some time I've been doing research with aluminum mirrors.
With the technique we developed, many mirrors have been made, all with accuracy better than 1 / 4 lambda, for use in the visual spectrum.
The technique developed by us, differs substantially from that used for the mirror glass. Last year some aluminum mirrors made ​​by us, were presented at ENAST (Annual Meeting of astronomy in Brazil).
Due to the interest in these mirrors, we founded the group:
http://br.groups.yahoo.com/group/ATMmetalmirror/
for all who are interested, can learn the technique and participate in discussions. On my page you can see a Ronchi / Foucault one of the mirrors as well as other photos:
http://marcosbaun.multiply.com/photo...onchi_Foucault

JMBaungartner
Wow, I would not have believed it if I did not see it!
Amazing!
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  #26  
Old 17-01-2012, 11:01 PM
Marcosbaun
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Thank you Peter.
Soon we will be publishing a technique to make the mirrors for advanced ATMs that have polishing machine and also preferably a lathe for machining aluminum disk.
It is an extraordinary technique that is already being developed in four years and is now available to let all ATM community. This technique allows the fabrication of high quality mirrors, and in nothing are due to traditional glass mirrors.
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  #27  
Old 18-01-2012, 12:46 PM
Poita (Peter)
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I am looking forward to reading the details.
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  #28  
Old 18-01-2012, 01:45 PM
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This is extremely interesting. Especially polishing compound - Indian Ink (soot + water).

However, I guess there will still be a need for over coating with SiO to protect the surface from oxidation.. which may bring the overall cost close to that of conventional glass-based mirrors...
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  #29  
Old 19-01-2012, 01:49 AM
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Our technique does not use Indian ink for polishing, although we have been experimenting with it for some time.
The technique differs mainly in the use of the tool, which in our case is made of high density polyethylene.
Regarding the coating would be interesting to use it, however, some mirrors have monitored a few years, turned out not be necessary this procedure. However it can be applied, if desired. In the case of a mirror medium or large (over 300mm), even applying the coating, the final cost is much lower, since the aluminum is cheaper (I'm comparing glass discs versus discs of aluminum, respecting the ratio 6:1 in diameter / thickness).
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  #30  
Old 19-01-2012, 06:32 AM
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This is good... however, the whole thing will boil down to price and and availability of such mirrors.
I have 10" pyrex mirror from Coulter Optics (company doesn't exist any more), I bought it in States back in '80-ies, and I am still using it as is (it was washed 3 times so far). Apart from couple of scratches ( due to secondary landing on it due to an accident) it is almost perfect even today.
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  #31  
Old 28-01-2012, 03:18 PM
clive milne
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This book is probably worth having on your shelf if you are at all serious about professional optics and their manufacture. There are chapters devoted to alloy optical substrates pertaining to thermal properties, reflective properties, methods of manufacture, etc)

http://www.amazon.com/Reflecting-Tel...ref=pd_vtp_b_6

It has been a while since I read it, but from memory, discs of any real size when cut out of sheet alloy inevitably suffer from astigmatism. (The substrate has a directional grain) One solution to this that does work is to use something like a MIG welder to spray the metal on to a rotating mandril and slowly grow the size of the disk 'snowball' style. Of course you will also need to acquire the correct alloy in wire format, which may be a deal breaker in itself.

One other point that Wilson notes is that irrespective of the metal the substrate is made from, a machined and polished surface will NEVER achieve the same reflectivity as a vacuum deposition coating using exactly the same alloy. Implicitly therefore, you will still need to (or at least be better off) aluminising then quartz over-coating the finished optic.

Considering the cost (and relative quality) of optics coming out of GSO these days, the case for alloy substrates is not a very strong one. The exception to this is if you simply wanted to do it for the sake of the exercise, in which case the effort is entirely justified.

fwiw) There is one unconventional material that Wilson intimated had great promise for large diameter optical substrates, and that is Tungsten Carbide... I would hope I don't need to elaborate as to why that material is likely to remain outside of the amateur domain for a while at least.

best,
~c

Last edited by clive milne; 28-01-2012 at 05:01 PM.
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