NSW Boat license

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by dpastern

Personally, I feel very confident in saying that 95% of drivers currently on the road should NOT be. .....

Dave

Crawlers in the right lane?
Those that speed up to close the gap you are indicating to merge into?
Those that don't indicate at all?
Those who can't use a roundabout?
Those that weave into the safe gap you left with the car in front?
Under 21's?
Over 80's?
Born on Feb 29th?

nah...still not enough..

Perhaps those that the NSW Government charge a peak period toll, as clearly they made the decision to get out there to clog the roads and really annoy the "few" people actually going to work?

Now we are talking!

[TrevorW]

It's all well and good imposing legislation but look how many idiots drive without a license I think the same will hold true for boats.

Hows this going to be policed.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by marc4darkskies

....
I believe it's just that kind of holier than thou mentality that drives the thought processes of some of our legislators when they seek to introduce more stupid regulation to control our lives ... I.e. we government folk know better than you poor ignorant plebs - we'll save you from yourselves!

Bravo Marcus !

[xelasnave]

Thanks for that info... I am buying a boat at this very moment...it is as old as me (62) sailing boat and I have no mooring or licience so I guess I best get to Maritime first up when I get to Sydney... I plan to sail it from Sydney to up here or Brisbane and beyond... lots of rot, lots of work but I love it.. all I need is a parrot and a wooden leg ... seized motor ...but it has red sails... I thank the economic colapse for sending this boat to market ... or at least the influence on the price... there are some really good buys out there now.

alex

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

I'm deadly serious. Speeding. Failing to indicate. Not giving sufficient distance between yourself and the car in front of you. Using a mobile phone whilst driving. Smoking whilst driving. Children not strapped in. Owners not strapped in. Not driving with both hands on the wheel. Not maintaining a car properly - bald tyres, worn brakes and the list goes on. Trust me, all of that carries the vast majority of drivers on the road.

There's an old saying:

"2 hands for beginners" and I guarantee you, that if F1 drivers use both hands, and they're experts, then I'd expect ordinary drivers to most certainly use both hands.

10km/h over the limit is enough to increase your stopping distance by quite a fair bit. Most people on the road have average reflexes, poor to average eyesight and poor attention spans. Road statistics don't lie - we're a horrid nation for road fatalities. Poor driver education, poor driving skills all add up. To think anything else is being irresponsible and naive.

Dave

Originally Posted by marc4darkskies

Yikes!!! You're not serious are you Dave? An average person (errr - like me) doesn't think about what they're doing??? Are you an average person? And do you really believe that only 1 in 20 people deserve to hold a drivers license??!! That means that of the 11 or so people who have responded to this thread, no one is good enough to drive a car???!!!

I believe it's just that kind of holier than thou mentality that drives the thought processes of some of our legislators when they seek to introduce more stupid regulation to control our lives ... I.e. we government folk know better than you poor ignorant plebs - we'll save you from yourselves!

I say the majority of people ARE capable of critical thought and ARE able to make sensible choices without having rules dictated at them. And for the true idiots there are prisons and hospitals that will fix them right up.

Marcus

PS: Good thread Peter!

[acropolite (Phil)]

Crawlers in the right lane?
Those that speed up to close the gap you are indicating to merge into?
Those that don't indicate at all?
Those who can't use a roundabout?
Those that weave into the safe gap you left with the car in front?
Under 21's?
Over 80's?
Born on Feb 29th?

Actually non of the above types worry me, I keep an eye out for those kind, what worries me is the overconfident type, the one who assumes no one will run a red light or cross to the wrong side of the road, the one who blindly assumes someone will give way at an intersection and who demands his or her right of way, put simply the drivers who think they're infallible.
All people make mistakes at some time or another, the trick is to leave something in reserve to accomodate those mistakes.

Ride a motor bike for a while, you'll soon learn to accommodate others inattentiveness.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by acropolite

Ride a motor bike for a while, you'll soon learn to accommodate others inattentiveness.

Rode a Honda 750 over in the West for 6 years. Moved to Melbourne, and came to the conclusion the tram tracks + weather were not bike compatible.... Now in Sydney, looking longingly a Beemer 1100rs.....

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by dpastern

Road statistics don't lie - ....

Dave

Dave, I'm sorry mate but you've been sold a bushel of lemons.

A little bit of independent research...notably at the NTSB (USA) web site will reveal, statistically, the *safest* speed to drive is around 10km *faster* than the surrounding traffic. There is also a vast body of work that also indicates operating a vehicle at speeds on the upper side of the speed limit bell curve has the lowest crash probability.

Gosh.

How can this be? Simple. Let's assume the only speeds cars can do are 0km/hr and 60km/hr.

Clearly 60km/hr is very dangerous, as when said cars are are let loose on the general populace, *all* of these two speed vehicles, when they eventually have a crash (and given a few million samples, they will), were doing 60km/hr! (Ok, I've ignored crashes into stationary vehicles)

This begs the question: what is the most common speed ...perhaps the posted speed limit?

The dopes on our stay safe committees have only one response: lower the speed limits.

Lies, dammed lies, and statistics!

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Sorry Peter but I disagree. The faster you go, the more is required to slow you down, and to stop if needed. I do have a licence, but I rarely use it as I prefer to use public transport as it's better for the environment. I watch the cars on the road and I'm horrified at what I see.

As Phil said, too many drivers are overconfident. Worse, many drivers don't see their own bad habits. I ain't seeing I'm a perfec driver, I'm not. But I'm man enough to admit it. Very very few drivers on our roads are *good* drivers. Eyes, reflexes & brains all contribute to driving, and few have the talent to combine all 3 on the road. Those that do generally gravitate to motor sports. I could tell you some racing stories I've heard that display this type of unusual brilliance, but I'd probably bore you ;-)

Dave

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by dpastern

Sorry Peter but I disagree. The faster you go, the more is required to slow you down, and to stop if needed. I do have a licence, but I rarely use it as I prefer to use public transport as it's better for the environment. I watch the cars on the road and I'm horrified at what I see.....

Dave, your response says to me you are not a confident driver, driving scares you, and all other drivers are marginal at best (and arrogant generalization IMHO)....hence the more legislation that puts you in a comfort zone, the better.

I am confident that I, my wife and family, work colleagues along with most other drivers (eg ISS members reading this discussion) are "safe drivers".

I personally detest layers of, dare I say, revenue raising, legislation to tell me to slow down when conditions are such that even the posted speed limit could be too fast.

Likewise I don't need some stay-safe prat telling me going at 130km and hour on a gun barrel highway with nothing but Mulga to the horizon is "unsafe".....particularly given the fact I have regularly driven in Germany
at 180km/hr and have been safely passed by a local, (in a hurry to Warsaw? ) in a 7 series Beemer sitting on 210km/hr .

No doubt you'll think such talk is heresy (and perhaps it's the anarchist in me ) But getting back to my original post.... There is just way too much legislative bubble wrapping going on!

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Peter - you are wrong. I'm a very confident driver, have been since I first got in a car. I love driving, and I enjoy it thoroughly. I just don't have a car, so I don't get the chance to drive as much as I'd like to. One day I intend to get a Kart and start competing at a competitive level.

A straight road is no guarantee of being able to drive at high speeds - there are variables at play here. A F1 car can brake at incredible short distances, and a normal road car cannot. A F1 car is constructed of a carbon fibre chassis with a driver safety capsule. It also has a lower center of gravity as well and the body board sits much lower to the tarmac, helping with aeordynamics and handling etc. A normal road car does not have this. Road users do not have a compulsory rollcage, or do not have to wear a helmet. I suspect lives could be saved by implementing these sorts of things.

I do agree that there is a lot of legislative bubble wrapping going on, but not necessarily in this case of driving. I like to respect other drivers that share the road with me, as well as pedestrians. Most motor cyclists will tell you that most drivers from their experience are idiots. I'm not disagreeing with you for the sake of an argument or because I dislike you, I genuinely disagree with several points that you've made, because experience has taught me that there are many many people on the road who simply shouldn't be, for a variety of reasons.

Dave

PS I like to hone my skills by playing racing sims - it helps with getting a feel for a car's handling, as well as improving your eye to hand co-ordination and reflexes, as well as the way that the brain thinks.

[bloodhound31]

I rode a CBR100 for a few years. I can say conclusively that the ability to accelerate quickly to speed has got me out of more tight spots than braking and slowing down.

Riding a motorbike does train you to watch other drivers, do head checks before changing lanes, make eye contact with turning traffic, position yourself where you can be seen etc etc.

My driving in a car has VASTLY improved, since riding a motorcycle.

Holier than thou? Definately not. I have driven heavy rigid trucks in the army, with equally heavy trailers with tanks on top, passenger coaster 50 seater deluxe coaches, four-wheeler ag bikes on farms and stations mustering cattle and sheep, 20 tonne Tadano cranes, forklifts, four wheel drive trucks and LRPV's, fire tenders. etc.

Through hazardous terrain, fires, peak hour traffic mid-city, wet, dry, lawless cities (Dili, East Timor, Melbourne).

None of this makes me an expert driver. I still make mistakes and never think I won't, or that I am better at driving than most.

Baz.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by dpastern

..... Road users do not have a compulsory rollcage, or do not have to wear a helmet. I suspect lives could be saved by implementing these sorts of things.....

I do agree that there is a lot of legislative bubble wrapping going on, but not necessarily in this case of driving.

Dave... surely you're pulling my chain.

Roll-cages? Helmets? and clearly you believe most drivers (anyone but you?) are idiots.

I'm sorry mate I didn't want to take the piss, but

Can I assume in Plato-Dave's driving republic, we all drive at 30km/hr, with lights on during the day, wearing full harness seat-belts, full face helmets, fire-retardant underwear and gloves roll-cages.

After all, with driving you can never have enough regulation.

In the usual Sydney peak hour (three hour really) crush, I find most drivers safely get on with it..... my driving day is only very occasionally punctuated by a drongo.. with whom I have no problem, as Marcus said, so long as they are eventually taken care of by the Police, trauma units or Darwinian theory.

Anyway I expect we'll agree to disagree. Probably time to put this one to bed.

[lacad01 (Adam)]

Originally Posted by bloodhound31

Through hazardous terrain, fires, peak hour traffic mid-city, wet, dry, lawless cities (Dili, East Timor, Melbourne).

I like how you include Melbourne in that lawless city list

[bloodhound31]

Originally Posted by lacad01

I like how you include Melbourne in that lawless city list

Surely no-one here would disagree with that?

Baz

[multiweb (Marc)]

Gotta agree with the bubble wrap legislations BS. It's just a money raising exercise no more no less. Idiots want to speed and kill themselves? Let'em. Less of them. If you don't want people to speed you limit the cars speed at the factory not posting signs or giving fines to the offenders. Anyway I have enough trouble remembering which side of the road to drive on to worry about how fast I'm going.

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Peter, please don't put words in my mouth. You're implying that I've stated that I'm a perfect driver and everyone else is bad. I have said no thing.

Sure, a helmet and rollcage would be a nuisance, but it *would* save lives. Isn't that worth it? I'm sure you'd change your mind on this if a loved one had an accident, and such safety measures could have saved their life.

I'm not talking about doing 30km/h, that's just silly. 70km/h is a good, solid speed that allows good traffic flow. Our roads really do need improving too. Simple things like gear shift paddles on the steering wheel, rather than a manual shift need to slowly drift into mainstream cars.

There was an article in Brisbane's courier mail today that those going for their P's in QLD are allowed to go up to 10% over the official speed limit, a maximum of 3 times during their test. In NSW it's zero tolerance (my belief), and Victoria had some leeway. This sends a message to most of the P platers (mostly rash youth) that it's OK to speed, as long as you don't get caught. My father has been driving for well over 50 years, and let's just say that he has a saying:

speed thrills, speed kills.

I've been in cars with mates, and saved their bacon several times (heavy rain, they go to merge lanes, miss a car behind them in the heavy rain and almost collide, luckily eage eyes Dave stops them in time). Both drivers were not bad drivers at all, just bad scenarios hampered their vision. Both were extremely grateful for my input - both incidents could have been very nasty accidents. Anyone, including myself, could have missed the cars in question, luckily, as a passenger, I could devote more time to checking behind us when about to merge into the other lane and it paid off.

The main culprits I see with drivers these days are:

1) speeding
2) unsafe distance from car in front
3) not dropping speeds and distance to car in front in bad conditions (rain/fog)
4) talking on the mobile phone (yes, there are LOTS of idiots who do this).

Oh, and another article in today's paper (MX) showed that there is statistical proof that those listening to sporting events on the car radio are more likely to be distracted and either break road rules as a result, or have a crash. I'm not saying rip out the radios in cars etc, but I am saying that people do need to be aware that distractions can, and do happen and contribute to accidents.

What do you say to someone who loses a loved one that could (and should) have been prevented? I feel sorry for the police investigation units that have to go out to some of these accidents. It'd be a horrific thing imho.

You look at things from the point of view of over regulation and inconvenience, I look at things from the point of view of saving lives. Once a life is taken, you can't go back in time and bring it back. Hindsight won't work either. Better to prevent the event from happening in the first place.

I suspect that you've jumped on my posts because I haven't agreed with your line of thought - I guess people on the net expect you to automatically agree with them, rather than show some thought behind your posts.

Anyways, good discussions have ensued, which I enjoy.

Dave

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Dave... surely you're pulling my chain.

Roll-cages? Helmets? and clearly you believe most drivers (anyone but you?) are idiots.

I'm sorry mate I didn't want to take the piss, but

Can I assume in Plato-Dave's driving republic, we all drive at 30km/hr, with lights on during the day, wearing full harness seat-belts, full face helmets, fire-retardant underwear and gloves roll-cages.

After all, with driving you can never have enough regulation.

In the usual Sydney peak hour (three hour really) crush, I find most drivers safely get on with it..... my driving day is only very occasionally punctuated by a drongo.. with whom I have no problem, as Marcus said, so long as they are eventually taken care of by the Police, trauma units or Darwinian theory.

Anyway I expect we'll agree to disagree. Probably time to put this one to bed.

[Peter Ward]

Thought this was done and dusted....but...

Originally Posted by dpastern

Peter, please don't put words in my mouth. You're implying that I've stated that I'm a perfect driver and everyone else is bad. I have said no thing.

True. The quote was infact

Originally Posted by dpastern

Most motor cyclists will tell you that most drivers from their experience are idiots

O.K. I'll admit it, I used to drive a Volvo, but now have a new Benz...which BTW makes safety oriented steering geometry and suspension changes *above* 120km/hr....a little useless in Kindergarten Oz....but this??

Sure, a helmet and rollcage would be a nuisance, but it *would* save lives. Isn't that worth it?

Apart from the point blank refusals from ladies who just spent a motza on their hair....Not only does your prehperial vision suffer, helmets also attenuate hearing...and lower your situational awareness.

6 years on a Honda 750 tells me this is a lame idea. That plus dense traffic, cars with narrow windows/blindspots. Bugger.. you may hit something, but OK chances are you'll walk away.

My father has been driving for well over 50 years, and let's just say that he has a saying:

speed thrills, speed kills.

I really, * really* detest this brain dead mantra. Speed does not kill.

In Oz we have been fed it for so long, many accept it as doctrine.

I have approximately 13,000 hours flying very heavy jets all over the planet, at 85% of the speed of sound. Ergo I should have met my maker years ago.

It's impacting things that kills. The same logic appplied to going for healthy jog around the block comes unstuck if you get distracted and smack your head into a power pole while in full stride. (not sure what the mantra is there...exercise kills? power poles kill? )

Suffice to say I go to a good deal of trouble to avoid situations that have a non-trivial risk of an impact both on the ground (and in the air!! ).

Do we teach such avoidance in Oz?

Heck no, we only get simplistic solutions (e.g. speed kills) , layering of legislation and, there is too much indirect taxation from speeding fine revenues.

[marc4darkskies (Marcus)]

In the spirit of futility I just can't resist either Peter .... ssssomebody STOP meeeee!!!

Originally Posted by dpastern

Peter, please don't put words in my mouth. You're implying that I've stated that I'm a perfect driver and everyone else is bad. I have said no thing.

No Dave, you've actually said most people are bad drivers and average Australians don't "contemplate" what they are doing. I note you haven't included yourself as an "average" person - so you, by exclusion from your own stats, are a cut above the rest of us?

Originally Posted by dpastern

Sure, a helmet and rollcage would be a nuisance, but it *would* save lives. Isn't that worth it? I'm sure you'd change your mind on this if a loved one had an accident, and such safety measures could have saved their life.

Oh Dave - and where does this "protectionism" end? Do you outlaw swimming at beaches because someone might drown? Do you outlaw driving in the rain because the roads are too slippery. Do you make the ladies wear sensible shoes because they might fall down stairs and break their necks in those stillettos?

Originally Posted by dpastern

I've been in cars with mates, and saved their bacon several times (heavy rain, they go to merge lanes, miss a car behind them in the heavy rain and almost collide, luckily eage eyes Dave stops them in time).

YOU saved them??!!! Do you not hear even the slightest tinge of arrogance in your own words Dave?

Originally Posted by dpastern

Oh, and another article in today's paper (MX) showed that there is statistical proof that those listening to sporting events on the car radio are more likely to be distracted and either break road rules as a result, or have a crash. I'm not saying rip out the radios in cars etc, but I am saying that people do need to be aware that distractions can, and do happen and contribute to accidents.

Dang, I can be distracted?? ... hmmmm how can we regulate against that!!!

Originally Posted by dpastern

What do you say to someone who loses a loved one that could (and should) have been prevented?

That's a tough one. But who decides what preventable thing needs regulation Dave? The fact is EVERY human action and consequence is preventable! But I don't want YOU to decide how to make MY life risk free!!!!! ... and limit my freedom in the process. I hammered my thumb driving in a tent peg the other day - I didn't blame the hammer, the tent peg, the wind in my face or the wife telling me to hurry. It was my own poor judgement & dumb luck. Repeat after me Dave - It's my right to take full responsibility for my own actions and decisions. (And no, I'm no anarchist)

Cheers, Marcus

[Octane (Humayun)]

What the...

Originally Posted by dpastern

Simple things like gear shift paddles on the steering wheel, rather than a manual shift need to slowly drift into mainstream cars.

You're proposing to take the /fun/ away from driving? I don't know about anyone else, but, the reason (well, one of them) why I chose a manual car over automatic was so that driving wouldn't bore me to tears. I get a great kick out of pushing the clutch and changing up/down gears.