Wall Street can you fix it?

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by tornado33

Thank goodness we have the Age Pension here in Australia, I know thats what I will be relying on when I reach age 65, as will a number of my friends. I also thank the fact we have medicare here, so I will get treated (albeit after a wait) if I get sick.

Anyway I do NOT support using taxpayer monies to bail out a stockmarket be it in the US or anywhere else, no matter the cost. If it causes a world wide depression, then at least it will show many in the world how the poor live (when they become them). If the bail out is allowed and a further crash happens than all that much needed public money is gone forever.
Scott

Yeh me too .... unfortunately , I have to been out of the workforce and my super has not had much chance to grow, retrenched in 1983 , retrenched in 1988 retrenched in 1999 .
I wish I had been born a few years earlier , my brother has had a better deal than me , joined BHP in 1972 , he survived the retrenchments until 1999 when he got a very nice pay out and a golden handshake , best thing that ever happen to him was closure of the Steelworks .... has too much to get a pension , lucky bugger ... aways comes up smelling like roses no matter what, no such luck for me, always the nasty smelly end the stick..

My rollover is not huge, I've got some left in the building society but not a huge fortune , BUT AT LEAST I OWN MY HOME and MY CAR and am pretty much debt free , so we can make do on a pension if we stay away from the clubs and don't splash out very often.
I would not want to be an American in a similar situation .... things for them are pretty nasty and horrible I hear ....

SOCIALISM IS GOOD !!!!

The Cold War bankrupted the USSR , out of control greed and the so called War on Terror and the Bush Jr regime are well on the way to bankrupting the USA .... it is immoral to bail out fat cats and crooks and not to help the victims.

[fwhong (Wai Hong)]

Interesting Post Scott. Absolutely enjoyed the read.

Unfortunately, the entanglement of our global economies doesn't allow us to simply sit back on our bums while enjoying watching America go broke. No smilies on my face at least.

It's just a matter of time before Aussies share the pain.

[GrampianStars (Rob)]

Thank goodness we have the Age Pension here in Australia,Not for much longer unless the missus has another baby I know thats what I will be relying on when I reach age 65,I've got my bush block Now just gota' learn how to grow food & BIO-FUEL and not just look at the stars as will a number of my friends. I also thank the fact we have medicare MediCare not going to be around for many more years here, so I will get treated (albeit after a wait) if I get sick.

Anyway I do NOT support using taxpayer monies to bail out a stockmarket... can't argue there
Scott

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by GrampianStars

Thank goodness we have the Age Pension here in Australia,Not for much longer unless the missus has another baby I know thats what I will be relying on when I reach age 65,I've got my bush block Now just gota' learn how to grow food & BIO-FUEL and not just look at the stars as will a number of my friends. I also thank the fact we have medicare MediCare not going to be around for many more years here, so I will get treated (albeit after a wait) if I get sick.

Anyway I do NOT support using taxpayer monies to bail out a stockmarket... can't argue there
Scott

Howard and his cronnies kept on saying things like that , and were hell bent on americanising Australia DO WE WANT TO BECOME MORE LIKE THE USA ?!?.... claims that the pension will disappear are scare tactics ....

My kid may have the option of getting the age pension , he's 25 years old, hopefully he'll have a better run at building up his super than I have.

It's not right for a country as well endowed and wealthy as Australia not to look after those who have not had a chance to accumulate enough to support themselves in their sunset years .... and ensure they have good and confortable standard of living ....SHAMEFUL !!! How the poor are treated in the USA beggers belief , it is appalling , it is third world , it is NOT CHRISTIAN.

I'm 51 years old and don't see any real reason, other than the Libs getting back into power sometime in the next 10-15 years why the age pension wont be there for me and my wife.
If they do get back in , that will be VERY BAD NEWS for Australia's medical and social security safety nets which they will abolish , like workers' rights and our rights in otherways too (unless you are rich).

[Miaplacidus (Brian)]

Privatize the profits, socialize the losses. Love it.
I heartily recommend "Two Centuries of Panic" , a history of Australia's corporate and bank collapses. And another book, a history of the 1907 panic in the US, published last year. Same old same old, I'm afraid, and the latter goes a long way to explaining what's happening in 2008. (The first has this classic quote about how a bank is an institution that guarantees to give you your money back just so long as you don't ask for it.)
Anyone who didn't see this slow motion train wreck coming, I'm afraid, just wasn't paying attention.
Can't blame the Americans, since we Aussies have also been using our homes as glorified ATM machines. ("Hey, honey, we're $400 ahead in the mortgage. Let's go buy an ipod?")
See you in Armageddon.
Brian.

[GrahamL]

Let's go buy an ipod

or an investment property or two .. cheap credit WAS a nice little earner '
at face value ..remove the tax relief in todays ecenomic climate and you probably get a similar outcome down under ..allbeit a scaled down version...I think it will be a buisness as usual approach in the wash out from all this ..Govts in general around the world have a "sustained ecenomic growth or perish " view of the world .. So before looking at the US as a whole .. in lending scrutiny .. why is our govt wanting to tip a truck load of our cash into the local lending market ?.. everyone wants to call
the kettle black when it suits .. but look that mirror in the eye ? ..nah ,,not often

[qld]

Originally Posted by nightstalker

or an investment property or two .. cheap credit WAS a nice little earner '
at face value ..remove the tax relief in todays ecenomic climate and you probably get a similar outcome down under ..allbeit a scaled down version.

hi guys ,capitalists,socialists,commies(i know your there) you all sing the same tune....the govt should look after me what about stuff the govt and look after yourself and guess what you will actually discover freedom.
In the meantime if anybody wants to sell an ep or scope cheap and wants a quick
deal.....let me know first ,it might just save you time. and remember what professor Garnaut said today in his global warming report you must stop eating lamb and beef and switch to Kangaroo as it emits less methane...you got it , we will lead the world out of this "end of time "catastrophy by selling Kangaroo to the world thats the Aussie way and we can then say to the rest of the world "well save you"
Just another example of the Govt looking after you(not me)
have a nice Day i used to come from Queensland and i dont want any help qld P>S> the wombats taste nicer when cooked in the traditional way:r ofl:: rofl:

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by Miaplacidus

Privatize the profits, socialize the losses. Love it.
I heartily recommend "Two Centuries of Panic" , a history of Australia's corporate and bank collapses. And another book, a history of the 1907 panic in the US, published last year. Same old same old, I'm afraid, and the latter goes a long way to explaining what's happening in 2008. (The first has this classic quote about how a bank is an institution that guarantees to give you your money back just so long as you don't ask for it.)
Anyone who didn't see this slow motion train wreck coming, I'm afraid, just wasn't paying attention.
Can't blame the Americans, since we Aussies have also been using our homes as glorified ATM machines. ("Hey, honey, we're $400 ahead in the mortgage. Let's go buy an ipod?")
See you in Armageddon.
Brian.

Some of us have , not I , I own it (my home) and will never ever let a bank or building society or credit union or shock horror a finance company get any leverage on it ever again if I have any say on it.

If I can't afford something , I save for it , then I buy it when I can afford it.

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by qld

hi guys ,capitalists,socialists,commies(i know your there) you all sing the same tune....the govt should look after me...

Yes the commies are here ... and a more ignorant appraisal of my position would be difficult to find. I might find the energy to debate you if I could discern the point of your raving. Apparently eating 'roos will solve the stock market crash? You reasoning is as sloppy as your punctuation.

[qld]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

Yes the commies are here ... and a more ignorant appraisal of my position would be difficult to find. I might find the energy to debate you if I could discern the point of your raving. Apparently eating 'roos will solve the stock market crash? You reasoning is as sloppy as your punctuation.

the point is my friend while the world is in economic meltdown our govt
is pushing ahead with garnaut's report (read todays financial review or the Australian and roo is on the menu.,and just maybe that is all you will be able to afford.......) to save the planet......when the only question is our economy and should be the only item on the agenda.. thats what is worth saving.. otherwise we will all risk loosing our money..but as you are a self confessed commie, what would money mean to you. hooroo

[tornado33]

With cost of living skyrocketing, now they say we wil get slugged bit time for water and power soon, rises way above inflation rates, food going up, theres just no way someone on or near min wages can save enough for retirement. besides the means test for the age pension is VERY generous. My parents are (just) under the limit for a full pension, they got a reasonable nest egg from the BHP, both worked there and they too got a good golden handshake, but not enough for fully self funded retirement.

An aunt of mine visited her son in the US once, she noted many people well past 65 still working. Thats an utter disgrace, people having to literally work till they die. I am so glad I live here in Australia. (we have the southern skies too)

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by qld

the point is my friend while the world is in economic meltdown our govt
is pushing ahead with garnaut's report (read todays financial review or the Australian and roo is on the menu.,and just maybe that is all you will be able to afford.......) to save the planet......when the only question is our economy and should be the only item on the agenda.. thats what is worth saving.. otherwise we will all risk loosing our money..but as you are a self confessed commie, what would money mean to you. hooroo

Well , whever you think climate change is man caused or not , the cost of doing nothing about it will make the current little economic cuffuffle look like a picnic .... so it is something that must have a very high priority.

Not important if the USA's economy crashes and burns and the USA becomes the new Argentina and a third world and poor country , the rest of the world has being paying big time for the USA's greed and lust for new toys for decades , and have been held back , the USA going down, is in my view most likely a very good thing for the rest of us.

Great Depression of 2009 ??? humanity will survive .

Global Climate Change - worst case scenario is a mass extinction event like 250 million years ago - not so long ago Neolithic Man became extinct - so can we.

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by tornado33

With cost of living skyrocketing, now they say we wil get slugged bit time for water and power soon, rises way above inflation rates, food going up, theres just no way someone on or near min wages can save enough for retirement. besides the means test for the age pension is VERY generous. My parents are (just) under the limit for a full pension, they got a reasonable nest egg from the BHP, both worked there and they too got a good golden handshake, but not enough for fully self funded retirement.

An aunt of mine visited her son in the US once, she noted many people well past 65 still working. Thats an utter disgrace, people having to literally work till they die. I am so glad I live here in Australia. (we have the southern skies too)

They we the lucky ones to get enough . Lots of us didn't.

[Tannehill]

Hi Ian,

Balance is everything. How about this: you work, you earn money, and the government keeps it ALL, but generously doles out set increments to you each week to pay for your gas, food, clothes, and entertainment, and socks the rest away in a nice little super fund. The increments are based on your education, your job's 'worth' and other nice 'fair' formulae. That would be reductio ad absurdum for 'mandatory' retirement contributions. Just as an aside, many government-linked institutions here (universities, etc) have similar 'mandatory' contribution rules for employees, so we're not all rogues in that regard. But my point is, that rule is paternalistic. A wise useful policy, but paternalistic. We have paternalism here, it's just that our line is a bit farther back than most other Western countries. And it's because we voted it that way. Perhaps our culture will 'come around' to the way everyone else thinks, because since everyone does it that way, it MUST be right, eh? I'll also point out everyone also thought the world was flat. So, perhaps not.

Asscrackistan is....well....this is a family forum, so best we just let it drop. :>

As for the rest, including 'American attitudes' I can pretty much guarantee that most Australian's perceptions of American culture and daily life are distorted, based on the aforementioned crap we export in the form of movies and TV. Our lives, values, and day-to-day routines are much more alike than different. Yet it's the extremes of American culture - the loud brash and arrogant-sounding - that make it across the Atlantic and Pacific. We tolerate, hell, we even encourage the eccentric behavior here. We have a robust legal system for protecting one's right to be eccentric, foolish, etc. Americans snicker and kinda admire the loud brash arrogance of the successful. Talking smack. Etc. And we'll smirk when they fall. My perceptions are that Aussies distinctly do NOT find that brash arrogance amusing or even a bit admirable, except on the footy field. Aussies pride themselves on an egalitarian humility even in the face of supremacy. But the tall poppy syndrome haunts your culture, too, I saw that in good measure. But these are all style issues, not issues of substance. The accomplishments remain, either way.

And Australians, like Americans, have a robust and Kevlar-coated sense of national pride and honor. And that is good and noble. But one's sense of national pride and honor should be based on one's own country's merits.
Your candle does not burn brighter for blowing out another's.

Yes, I've considered living there, but my family and job and my 'center' are here. Home is where the telescope is!

Not sure what you mean about us being apoplectic about Obama. It's neck and neck here, and most folks not Obama is more style than substance, while McCain is old and more conservatism than true reform. New and unknown, vs old and perhaps stale. Politics.

Cheers, and here's to enjoying the wild ride to come for all of us.

S

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

who / where is Asscrackistan ????
mandatory super is great .... provided you stay in the workforce .... it needs to be bigger too .

You should consider jumping ship and coming back to the wonderous land of Oz pronto , before the USA becomes the next Argentina and is declared bankrupt by the World Bank.
Ozlandia .... the biggest little country and best place on Planet Earth.

Just make sure you don't bring too many american attitudes with you and you'll get on fine.

PS : why are som many american so apaplexic about Obama and so paranoid socialism by the way ?

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by qld

..but as you are a self confessed commie, what would money mean to you. hooroo

A second attempt to tell the forum what I believe. A second failure.

You should also drop the 'self confessed commie' line, it makes you look out of touch. McCarthyism is dead and being a communist is not a crime.

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

Global Climate Change - worst case scenario is a mass extinction event like 250 million years ago - not so long ago Neolithic Man became extinct - so can we.

Ian,

I've enjoyed, and largely agree with, your contribution to this thread but I must dispute these assertions. I don't think anyone is predicting extinctions on the scale of the Permo-Triassic event (eg 280 of 329 marine invertebrate genera from the South China Sea extinct, 50% loss of terrestrial plant species, the only known mass extinction of insects). I believe current predictions would not push temperatures above those of the last interglacial (ca 120,000 years ago) and I'm unaware of that causing any extinctions.

Of course the real extinction event happening now is not primarliy due to climate, it is agriculture, mining and housing and the associated clearing of natural vegetation that is having a massive impact. Over fishing and over hunting have also had a massive impact. In the not-too-distant past the mega fauna of the Americas, New Zealand and probably Australia were exterminated by the first homo sapiens to arrive on these land masses. In Australia another round of extinctions has occurred in the last 200 years. This clearing of natural vegetation can interact with climate change to exacerbate the effect of both. In the past, as climates changed species could migrate towards the poles or the equator to stay in the same climatic zone. We presently have islands of natural vegetation is a 'sea' of cultural landscapes and this inhibits such migrations.

Finally, I think you mean Neaderthal man went extinct. I believe that was caused by homo sapiens, not climate. The Neolithic was a stage in the cultural development of homo sapiens. Neolithic refers to the new stone age. Prior to that was the palaeolithic (old stone age) followed by mesolithic (middle stone age).

cheers,
David

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

Ian,

I've enjoyed, and largely agree with, your contribution to this thread but I must dispute these assertions. I don't think anyone is predicting extinctions on the scale of the Permo-Triassic event (eg 280 of 329 marine invertebrate genera from the South China Sea extinct, 50% loss of terrestrial plant species, the only known mass extinction of insects). I believe current predictions would not push temperatures above those of the last interglacial (ca 120,000 years ago) and I'm unaware of that causing any extinctions.

Of course the real extinction event happening now is not primarliy due to climate, it is agriculture, mining and housing and the associated clearing of natural vegetation that is having a massive impact. Over fishing and over hunting have also had a massive impact. In the not-too-distant past the mega fauna of the Americas, New Zealand and probably Australia were exterminated by the first homo sapiens to arrive on these land masses. In Australia another round of extinctions has occurred in the last 200 years. This clearing of natural vegetation can interact with climate change to exacerbate the effect of both. In the past, as climates changed species could migrate towards the poles or the equator to stay in the same climatic zone. We presently have islands of natural vegetation is a 'sea' of cultural landscapes and this inhibits such migrations.

Finally, I think you mean Neaderthal man went extinct. I believe that was caused by homo sapiens, not climate. The Neolithic was a stage in the cultural development of homo sapiens. Neolithic refers to the new stone age. Prior to that was the palaeolithic (old stone age) followed by mesolithic (middle stone age).

cheers,
David

Yes - they are the ones I meant : Neaderthal man / we can easily go the same way ....

[Ian Robinson]

Originally Posted by Tannehill

Hi Ian,

Balance is everything. How about this: you work, you earn money, and the government keeps it ALL, but generously doles out set increments to you each week to pay for your gas, food, clothes, and entertainment, and socks the rest away in a nice little super fund. The increments are based on your education, your job's 'worth' and other nice 'fair' formulae. That would be reductio ad absurdum for 'mandatory' retirement contributions. Just as an aside, many government-linked institutions here (universities, etc) have similar 'mandatory' contribution rules for employees, so we're not all rogues in that regard. But my point is, that rule is paternalistic. A wise useful policy, but paternalistic. We have paternalism here, it's just that our line is a bit farther back than most other Western countries. And it's because we voted it that way. Perhaps our culture will 'come around' to the way everyone else thinks, because since everyone does it that way, it MUST be right, eh? I'll also point out everyone also thought the world was flat. So, perhaps not.

Asscrackistan is....well....this is a family forum, so best we just let it drop. :>

As for the rest, including 'American attitudes' I can pretty much guarantee that most Australian's perceptions of American culture and daily life are distorted, based on the aforementioned crap we export in the form of movies and TV. Our lives, values, and day-to-day routines are much more alike than different. Yet it's the extremes of American culture - the loud brash and arrogant-sounding - that make it across the Atlantic and Pacific. We tolerate, hell, we even encourage the eccentric behavior here. We have a robust legal system for protecting one's right to be eccentric, foolish, etc. Americans snicker and kinda admire the loud brash arrogance of the successful. Talking smack. Etc. And we'll smirk when they fall. My perceptions are that Aussies distinctly do NOT find that brash arrogance amusing or even a bit admirable, except on the footy field. Aussies pride themselves on an egalitarian humility even in the face of supremacy. But the tall poppy syndrome haunts your culture, too, I saw that in good measure. But these are all style issues, not issues of substance. The accomplishments remain, either way.

And Australians, like Americans, have a robust and Kevlar-coated sense of national pride and honor. And that is good and noble. But one's sense of national pride and honor should be based on one's own country's merits.
Your candle does not burn brighter for blowing out another's.

Yes, I've considered living there, but my family and job and my 'center' are here. Home is where the telescope is!

Not sure what you mean about us being apoplectic about Obama. It's neck and neck here, and most folks not Obama is more style than substance, while McCain is old and more conservatism than true reform. New and unknown, vs old and perhaps stale. Politics.

Cheers, and here's to enjoying the wild ride to come for all of us.

S

Mmmm .... I was always told by my mum and dad that home is just where you and your wife and kids CHOOSE to live and are happy and safe.

And you don't need to have a monster house or be rich to be happy, but it can't hirt (to be rich so long as you got there honourably and without hirting other people) .... BTW dad was a card carrying communist after he returned from fighting the germans in Africa and the japanese in New Guinea and Borneo. I'm a card carrying socialist , and proud of it. Guess I wouldn't be very popular in the USA if I lived there, but here it is fine.

[Miaplacidus (Brian)]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

I'm a card carrying socialist , and proud of it.

Does Mastercard count?

Originally Posted by AstralTraveller

Finally, I think you mean Neaderthal man went extinct.

Hey! I'm not extinct.

Ug.

[Archy (George)]

Originally Posted by Ian Robinson

Well , whever you think climate change is man caused or not , the cost of doing nothing about it will make the current little economic cuffuffle look like a picnic .... so it is something that must have a very high priority.

Not important if the USA's economy crashes and burns and the USA becomes the new Argentina and a third world and poor country , the rest of the world has being paying big time for the USA's greed and lust for new toys for decades , and have been held back , the USA going down, is in my view most likely a very good thing for the rest of us.

Great Depression of 2009 ??? humanity will survive .

Global Climate Change - worst case scenario is a mass extinction event like 250 million years ago - not so long ago Neolithic Man became extinct - so can we.

There is some strange thinking here: "Climate change" is a cliche for "human induced global warming" so to say "whever you think climate change is man caused or not" is not logical.

"the cost of doing nothing about it will make the current little economic cuffuffle look like a picnic .... so it is something that must have a very high priority" What is the evidence that doing nothing will have serious economic impacts. Carbon and carbon dioxide are not pollutants: It may surprise some to learn that plants use carbon dioxide to live. So more carbon dioxide leads to more flora, more flora to more fauna etc...... so that life is more sustainable, not less. The relationship between carbon dioxide and atmospheric warming is not linear, but logarithmic. Global temperatures and sea levels have not risen by anywhere near the amount predicted by past models.. The conclusion is that those models are wrong.

Incidently: look at the temperature of Punta Arenas, the city nearest the South pole. Its temperature is going down, not up.

As we all have an interest in astronomy, I assume that we all are to a lesser or greater extent interested in what is happening beyond earth's atmosphere. The solar wind, I read the other day, has slowed down and, apparently, this causes more insolation. I don't know the extent of the increased insolation, but it must have some contribution to rises in global temperatures.

The debate about the extent of global warming, whether it has gone beyond what has been observed in the geological record, and to what extent it is man made, and what its economic consequences might be, is not over, no matter what the politicians of green, pink, or watermelon varieties say.

I am suspicious that many who espouse global warming are academics looking to stay in employment: I cannot regard them as disinterested observers, but as people who consume my tax dollar to promote a cause that will cause me financial loss if their advocacy prevails.

Archy