NSW-based IceInSpace Star Party?

[iceman (Mike)]

Wow loads of thoughts here, all good ideas and good suggestions, and plenty to think about. I'll respond in more detail in the next few hours, need to catch up on some work emails

[iceman (Mike)]

Ok, more thoughts..

Duration
Agree with Rob that it would need to be longer than 2 days to draw on people from further afield, but as an inaugrual event I wouldn't want to make it any longer - there's just too many unknowns and unplanned for's in a first-run event.

Obviously that would mean missing out on some people attending - travelling a long distance for 2 nights when you don't know what the weather will do, is always going to be risky. Same applies when we had out to Wiruna (SPSP) as well though.

So I'd like to confirm 2 nights at this stage, friday/saturday night. Possibly it can change, but let's start with that for now. Obviously as it grows bigger and organisation gets better, it can be 5 days next year or something.

Where?

Originally Posted by Greg Bryant

A Central Coast Star Party sounds great. Its proximity to the population bases of Sydney, Newcastle, and the Central Coast make it very appealing (proximity to the Hunter Valley for day trips is also nice...).

and

Originally Posted by xreckor

I'm not trying to knock Kulnura as a possible site, but I would also think that Sydney would present allot of sky glow at that location.

Both good points. But as Rod said:

It is always worthwhile considering what the purpose of such an event is, especially given that there are other star parties on the calendar around Oz for those who are interested in that sort of thing. What would be distinctive about an IceinSpace star party, for example?

At this stage we're not trying to compete with any other star party, but have something for the iceinspace community to attend and get excited about.
While Kulnura certainly isn't as dark as Wiruna, it's still very nice for it's proximity to transport, the city, amenities etc. And having it so close also attracts more people, because they don't have to drive so far. And if the weather does turn out to be bad, they're not that far from home.
We could plan for a site somewhere further west, but we'd have to investigate possible sites, amenities etc.
Kulnura has other things going for it, as Rod said, like:
BBQ's, tables/chairs, toilets, showers, parking, fields for camping, fields for observing.
Also agree with Rod that we would have to most likely pay the owners of the site for the use over the weekend, because potentially they would not be able to run paintball competitions that day, so we would need to at least subsidise what they would have received. Or as Ving said, maybe we can play paintball as one of the daytime events?

Or is this event being aimed at sydney, Newcastle and Central Coast folks? Perhaps we could looks at a Lions Club or Camping ground that has anoff season during, with relivant facilities. Might be able strike a deal with them.

It's certainly not aimed at just the locals, we'd love to see people from further afield, but for a first-run I think there'll need to be a trade-off between ease-of-organising, facilities available, and getting people from elsewhere to attend. Will investigate possibilities of other camp grounds at a darker site.

Originally Posted by firstlight

Your Starparty will very likely start smallish, but as it becomes part of the Astronomy calendar, it is almost certain to grow. Your venue will have to accommodate this

Good point, will keep this in mind.

Timing
I'm not keen on xmas holidays, because that's when people go away on holidays and do family stuff. October long weekend (1st/2nd October) co-incides with new moon, and gives the people time to relax at home on Monday after a busy weekend. But is that enough time to organise it all?
The other time could be January long weekend as Rod suggested, which is also the date of new moon. Is October better than January for weather? Obviously the hot weather isn't ideal, especially if we get late afternoon storms.
Also though, as Greg said,

but then, even if it was one month earlier/later, how many people are going to undertake Star Party trips twice in 4 weeks?

Would people come to the Central Coast one month and then Ballarat 4 weeks later? I guess it depends how many people are likely to attend both.. I think a small proportion, if any (maybe I'd be the only one attending both? ).
October long weekend is only 7 weeks away - is that enough time to organise it?

Food, Amenities
I certainly wouldn't be keen to start organising food, otherwise it would be sausage sandwhiches for breakfast, lunch and dinner. So maybe as Rod suggested:

perhaps catered by a catering company so we don't have to worry about organsiation or cooking, just collecting fee for meal.

We'd probably only need to cater for dinner each night, and let people arrange their own breakfast/lunch. If we hold it at Kulnura, the major shops at Gosford are literally only 25-30 minutes drive away (or only 5-10 minutes for corner stores). So people could easily stock up on supplies.

Organising
As Rob said:

Maybe some sort of commitee needs to be formed to deal with the logistics of and event that size.

Will definitely require volunteers to help with organising. I can setup a mailing list @iceinspace.com.au or private forum for volunteers to communicate with each other.
If you're seriously interested in helping out, ie: you have the time and desire, please PM or email me.

Originally Posted by earthlight

Will this situation require a paid organiser, or a number of people dedicated to running and not experiencing the camp

Very good point - the volunteers putting their hand up to organise it, will most certainly want to enjoy the star party as well. We don't want the two to be mutally exclusive - and if as a rule, they are mutually exclusive, then we need to find a solution.

Sponsoring

Originally Posted by xreckor

And how about the idea of of sourcing a few willing sponsers. A raffle of sorts to raise a few dollars to help Mike keep this wonderful website maintained and running smoothly

Will definitely be speaking to potential sponsors for the event. I would expect there would be quite a few willing to participate in one form or another.

Legal/Insurance
Good points raised by Anne-Louise about insurance.. need to speak with property owners about this. Rod (a lawyer) may be able to advise, but definitely an area that needs to be looked into. The property at Kulnura may already have some sort of insurance (being that they play paintball there), but more needs to be investigated here.

Daytime events
We can try and arrange talks etc for daytime stuff, or play paintball We'll discuss this once we know a date and location.

Naming?
Is it the official "IceInSpace Star Party"? Obviously we're affiliated with other events, like monthly sessions between members, and of course the Star Camp in Ballarat, but we're not directly involved in organising these. But the names could get confusing..
If we have it at Kulnura it could be called the "IceInSpace Coastal Star Camp" or "KulnuraCamp".. hmm need something catchy.. suggestions?


Thanks very much to everyone who has contributed to this thread so far, especially those experienced in attending or organising star parties. You input has been invaluable.

[ving (David)]

I like the way you put a "" next to paintball each time you mentioned it

I like "Kulnura Star Camp". Its got a ring to it. Though more people might be attracted to a "IIS Central Coast Star Camp" especially if they have never heard of Kulnura before. And in the event of it growing and having to change location we could keep the name if it stays somewhere on the central coast area.
This is a good starting point for possible growth later

[iceman (Mike)]

I like the way you put a "" next to paintball each time you mentioned it

haha I dunno, it's just the thought of a bunch of nerdy amateur astronomers running around a field trying to kill each other with paintball guns Just makes me smile

Originally Posted by iceman

haha I dunno, it's just the thought of a bunch of nerdy amateur astronomers running around a field trying to kill each other with paintball guns Just makes me smile

Yeah right! I can see it now, I think I'll become a Wallabie supporter for that weekend

On another note, If you were to choose another location (Maybe Kulnura has one as well) these sites (Lions clubs, Camping Grounds and such) have managers we maybe be able to call upon to cook meals like up at Camp Duckadang... just a thought

regards

Also I might add food doesn't have to be two course meals. burgers, steak sangers, chips, salad was on offer up @ AstroFest something simple along those lines would do. But I also dont mind bring food if there is somewhere to cook it.

regards

Personally I think you should keep a location name out of the title itself, if later you change venue it could become confusing. For example Kulnura Star Camp or such is going to sound a lil wierd if a change of venue happens to be 40-60kms up the road

just my thoughts

Ice&Space Star camp (if in winter)

regards

[Rodstar (Rod)]

Re the insurance issue, a few comments:

1. In order for insurance to be needed (and obtainable), there needs to be an identifiable legal entity seeking cover. In my view, as things presently stand, Iceinspace is not a legal entity, but rather an informal internet community. I don't think "we" could get insurance if we wanted it.

2. If someone is injured, they will be probably be suing the owner of the land. This lends weight to the idea of using the Kulnura site, because the owners would certainly have insurance as they run a Paintball business (I note that paintballing is a wee bit more dangerous than standing around looking through eyepieces).

3. Under the Civil Liability Act (NSW), there are now a number of safeguards one can take to avoid liability for PI claims. For example, it is now lawful to contract out of liability for claims where people have been advised of obvious risks of injury (for abundant caution, I would recommend that participants sign a waiver of liability if their application form is to be accepted by the organisers).

4. Under the same Act, a person's right to bring a claim is now severely limited to where they have suffered serious injury, so claims for broken legs etc can't be brought anymore and pose no risk. I am having great difficulty imagining a serious injury arising from a star party (unless aperture fever suddenly becomes a fatal condition).

In short, no need to tie ourselves in knots over insurance folks!

I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not trying to second guess you Rod

What in the case of someone rocking up for a quick peek through a scope setup for solar observing, the owner of the scope may try removing the filter with out realising it's currently being observed through.

In anycase any place used for public functions would have a policy covering public liability... lions clubs, camping grounds, event venues and such. Just becuase your playing paintball in a particular venues as opposed to a rock concert at the Sydney entertainment center or standing around a paddock looking through telescopes, the policy isn't any different. Your still required to have cover or the venue will be up for being sued. It is in the interest of the venue to have this cover. I think if you were to ask everyperson they have to sign away the right for compensation when they could be possibly cause for one would be very hard to acclomplish. It would in anycase fall back to duty of care.

regards

[Brendan]

on the food side of things, might i suggest the local RFS brigades (i know buckety is only just down the road) these guys need community support for things like station maintenance etc. Im sure you would find them quite willing to help out for a small donation.

My preference would be for the January long weekend or this time next year.
The significant others birthday is in October and i would be drawn quartered shot hung and jumped on if i went star gazing instead.

also i would be interested in assisting in the orgainising committee as my uni would be over.

[Rodstar (Rod)]

Rob,

For a person (plaintiff) to sue another (defendant) in relation to an injury, they must show that:
1. The defendant has a duty of care to the plaintiff
2. The defendant has failed in that duty ("negligence"), and
3. The defendant's negligence is responsible for the plaintiff's injuries.

In the example you have cited, the person (other than the would be plaintiff) with the only control over whether the injury occurs is the owner of the scope. The organisers of the starparty could not, on any analysis, have any control over such an incident. If the organisers can't control the incident, they can't be held to have failed in exercising a duty of care. Therefore, no case against the organisers.

Could the injured party sue the owner of the scope? Possibly. However, in NSW, the Court of Appeal has consistently held since October 2002 that persons must act reasonably to protect their own safety. It is for this reason that it is now virtually impossible in NSW to sue a Council because of the classic footpath trip and fall. The courts now say that people should know as a matter of common sense that footpaths are often uneven, and that they should be vigilent when taking a stroll. In like terms, amateur astronomers should know as a matter of common sense to approach a solar scope with extreme caution. A claim against the owner of the scope would almost certainly fail as well.

Before I was an industrial lawyer, I ran many hundreds of personal injury cases, firstly acting for insurers like Zurich and QBE, and later for injured persons. I have been in PI cases ranging in value from $10K to $3.5million. If the model that we are following is that we are an informal community, and not an organisation, I remain of the view that we will not be able to obtain insurance, and that we have no need to do so. Our star party will be no different to a group of mates getting together for a beer after work. We will all be equals, meeting together to pursue our mutual interests.

Here endeth the lesson.

[iceman (Mike)]

Thanks for the comprehensive summary Rod, it puts my mind at ease and won't worry about that part of the organisation at least

Rod,

Sounds good to me,

But I would of thought if the in the case of a solar observer example. If it could be proved the owner didn't take steps to ensure that a person wasn't infact taking a peek he would be liable, It could be said the observer being focused on his objective may never of noticed the filter being removed, especially if a friend was standing next to the observer so to speak, there would be a witness. It would still come down to duty of care on the owner or person(s) removing the filter wouldn't it? which is what I meant by duty of care. This very incident very nearly did happen up at AstroFest.

Also as we are registered members of a group being IceInSpace who will pay a fee to be apart of a weekend event, could that be proven to be an entity?
Would Mike (iceman) be considered an MD and the moderators or commitee members as managers of an enity? I mean when I go for a beer I'm not registered with my mates as a group of friends. Maybe for the groups sake could you clarify

It's just that before I was a fulltime dad, I spent 17 yrs in the entertainment
industry, working in almost every aspect of it and managed hundreds of events. for instance as a rigger in charge of up to 100 tons of production gear flown above the public and/or artists heads, to fabricating buildings in public areas for movie sets ie Sydney CBD, I could not and was not able to work at the time without a minumim $10 million dollar Public liability cover. Joe public could of walked onto or near some of those sites an not beware I was working 1 to 100 stories above their heads.

Like I said I'm not try to second guess you more using your knowledge, just making sure we have our T's crossed and i's dotted so to speak. Sometime it's the _unheard of_ thet gets you.

Perhaps Tony and Anne-Lousie could input here as to the insurance needed to run AstroFest if infact it was needed. But I thought I did hear Anne-Lousie mention it.

kindest regards

[cahullian]

Wouldn't the liability waiver take care of all that?
The gym I go to has one and no-one sues them for injuries.

Yeah sure! but how many astro events do you go to an sign a waiver?

Going to a gym where you know what your in for, is a lil different than going to a public event and the unexpectant happens. The gym would still have some sort of cover. For instance if you were to pick up some weights and you toppled over, the weights fall from you hands and amazingly smash through a window onto Joe public walking down the street. would you be reasponsible for the fact that the gym was on the first floor, with floor to ceiling windows? This is what public liability cover is for, the unforseen.

My question to Rod is more to do with duty of care of the organisers and making sure they are covered for the unforseen or if this needs to be an issue that should be fully looked at. I guess it is the old production manager coming out in me. We can go out with good intentions and then find ourselves in the poo. This is where experience comes in and I'm only trying to share mine

kindest regards

[cahullian]

You have me scared to go outside now...and scared to stay inside also....

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

I can't speak for other States but in Victoria there are strict 'Duty of Care' regulations.

Even though there are strict Victorian rules, as a Youthworker I was also covered by Federal Duty of Care regulations which are stricter.

It states that whilst the clients (the kids) are in, and under my care and control (I hate that word) I am responsible for any misfortune, accident, misadventure, damage to or by the client, or death to or caused by the client during the process of carrying out my duty whilst on my rostered time by my contracted employer. (plus all the bits about sexual, mental and physical treatment)

And yet, if I met up with them on the weekend for a fishing trip, or we all went to the Speedway, it's not my problem if one of them gets killed or mamed.
Even if we were all 'paid up and registered' members of the 'Ice in Space Astronomy Club Inc.' no-one is responsible for anyone else at viewing sessions unless it was written into the organisations constitution that a contracted co-ordinator is responsible and registered under the 'Act of Duty of Care'.

Otherwise it is a bunch of like-minded geeks doing a geeky thing and nobody else cares.

Duty of Care doesn't come into the equation.

Originally Posted by cahullian

You have me scared to go outside now...and scared to stay inside also....

lol, sorry if my inquiries have made you feel that way

they certainly were not intended to do so

regards

Ken,

I did try to answer your post, but since the latest windows update yesterday my browser seems to want to crash everytime I try to use the text field in the "Add Reply" button. Hence beating out a reply only have it crash is a real pain in the @$$

Maybe this discussion could be somehow moved away from a web based chat interface

sorry mate

regards

So in very short

Originally Posted by ballaratdragons

And yet, if I met up with them on the weekend for a fishing trip, or we all went to the Speedway, it's not my problem if one of them gets killed or mamed. .

That’s right it would be a problem for the governing body. Or the organiser of the speedway

Originally Posted by ballaratdragons

Even if we were all 'paid up and registered' members of the 'Ice in Space Astronomy Club Inc.' no-one is responsible for anyone else at viewing sessions unless it was written into the organisations constitution that a contracted co-ordinator is responsible and registered under the 'Act of Duty of Care'.

Otherwise it is a bunch of like-minded geeks doing a geeky thing and nobody else cares.

Duty of Care doesn't come into the equation.

Ummmm not entirely how duty of care works. You cant by-pass it by simply not having it written into your organisations constitution.

Please understand I’m not trying to be auguementative or scare moungering. Simply trying to address all the if’s and but’s.