ICEINSPACE
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02-03-2008, 11:04 PM
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pro lumen
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ballina
Posts: 3,265
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Did see a little of the doco and thought it was a very predictable
example of an old way of presenting 
Start with an outcome you want then selectively work your way back to a given starting point ...flip it over so it reads the other way ..everything appears to flow as a result .. Bottom line is still killing thousands of people
by flying a missile into a lump of concrete and steel is just plain sad.
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03-03-2008, 02:49 AM
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It was there last time!
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Ararat
Posts: 131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugnsuz
Way to stifle uninformed debate with FACTS Night Owl!!! 
US = BAD
Rest of World = ? what ?
You neglected to state the catalog of horor perpetrated by other regimes in the name of their 'advancement'!
No dispute over the links you cited, but balance is imperative.
Cliche I know, but the fact that we can debate/discuss this stuff on public forums negates the conspiracy theory to a degree.
And, for conspiracy theory to hold, one must assume the government to be competent and functional enough to perpetrate the act, which seems a little far fetched - take a look around you...poor healthcare, education, infrastructure etc etc. If they can't even come close to getting that right...9/11 would be their only success!!!!!!
And, armed with all these web page links, all this accumulated knowledge of how evil WE are (they're our representatives after all - US/UK/AU) - what can you / we do !!??
Blog!!!??
Post diatribe in astronomy forums!!!??
I recently discussed a lot of this stuff (9/11 conspiracy) with a friend who is literate, well travelled, engaged in the events of today...I stated how I thought the US were complicit in the whole thing (albeit after watching these unbalanced YouTube docos) - his glazed expression and shoulder shrugs shocked me and brought me back to an uneasy reality...
Many don't care!
Many feel impotent - so much so that public expession of any contrary view to that repeated by the TV news is 'embarrasing'!!!!
Perhaps I'm playing devil's advocate in my own argument here, but maybe all the events stated in Night Owl's post have culminated in this selfish attitude of our western society?
Sleep tight!!!
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Sorry for putting forward any facts. I know facts don't have much place in anything the US does EG: Weapons of Mass Distraction, and BTW where is Osama? They can't find him either! 
And I didn't know I had to present a catalogue of horrors. I thought I was discussing the WTC demise and the possiblity of the US goverment creating the WTC 'disaster' to justify the US going to war.
In any event isn't the absolute saturating abundance of western media owned presentations so accurately portraying just how evil the non western countries are enough!
And what's that about balance being imperative? For there to be any balance 50% of the media and programming in this country would have to be owned by Arabs from Middle Eastern Muslim countries. But it would appear that isn't going to happen for some reason. Channel 9 couldn't risk the TV ratings of The Footy Show competeing with that of Al Jazeera's top rating programs.
So there are no conspiracy theories, because we can discuss it in forums... How can that work? Or if it really was a conspiracy that every server with every forum would be scanned by the CIA, and shut down by their underground bunkers chockers full of highly trained forum hackers?
And I like your point about
" And, for conspiracy theory to hold, one must assume the government to be competent and functional enough to perpetrate the act, which seems a little far fetched - take a look around you...poor healthcare, education, infrastructure etc etc. If they can't even come close to getting that right...9/11 would be their only success!!!!!!"
They can get away with what they do BECAUSE of the poor health care, education, and infrastructure etc. etc.. Their poor huddled masses are so busy seeking out a minimum wage existence out of 'the bin of life' they don't have time to take their eyes off the poverty they live in year after year. Why do you think 95 or everything (including the media) in the US is owned by just 5% of the population? That 5% is the 5% who can rig the government to go to war for the factories that they own. Remember the BS about Cheeney and his involvement with Halliburton? Not only was Chenney responsible for convincing Bush to bomb Iraqs infrastructure flat, he's the same SOB also on the board of Halliburton, to be paid billions to rebuild what he recommended to blow up in the first place! Its almost like a Ben Elton book!
Remember this...
Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst3...ts/indust.html
I would say from the way the world looks today that the Military Industrial Complex eventually won.
Yeah, you're right, many people don't care, because they feel impotent. That's how 'they' get away with these outrageous conspiracies. They know people don't really care, as long as they can upsize Colonel McChucks latest gizzard burger, watch The Footy Show, and pay the banks 24% interest on their credit cards: everythings fine.
Well I don't think that way. I'm scared to death about how seriously screwed up this world is becasue of the way some in power think. And its becoming slowly obvious to some people that if humanity gets just a bit more screwy the whole planet could really end up a desolate wasteland, that is uninhabitable, except for life down near the volcanic vents perhaps...
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03-03-2008, 06:04 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,590
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Night Owl
.....And its becoming slowly obvious to some people that if humanity gets just a bit more screwy the whole planet could really end up a desolate wasteland, that is uninhabitable, except for life down near the volcanic vents perhaps...
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And that could be a good thing  no religion  or religeous influence.
Beside do you think mother Earth would really care??? it will still be here
along with everything else we orbit around.
regards,CS
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03-03-2008, 07:01 AM
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Let there be night...
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Hobart, TAS
Posts: 7,639
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Quite right Leon. Reminds me of a film a certain Mr. Al Gore appeared in, post his political career's demise. Now his career's back on track - a miracle I say!
Quote:
Originally Posted by leon
Ok guys lets get serious here, just say, as some of you do that it was con job, and the US did it themselves.
Count the number of people involved in such a conspiricy, they would range into the 1000's, and not once has a word been uttered by one of these people in a state of being pissed in some bar, said the wrong thing at the wrong time, etc, etc,etc,
We all can be brain washed into believing some well put together film, report or other.
It was real alright, and bloody scary stuff.
leon
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03-03-2008, 11:48 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hahndorf, South Australia
Posts: 4,373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Night Owl
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Thanks for this link in particular. The others are horrible.
What a bloody mess...
Doug
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03-03-2008, 12:11 PM
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an overactive imagination
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Erlistoun WA
Posts: 592
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I just remember watching it live.
I saw two bloody great airliners fly smack into them and later on they fell down. No doco or otherwise will ever convince me I didn't see what I saw or that it was anything other than an act of terrorism.
A good friend lost her only daughter in tower one, she'd been in her new job all of two days 
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03-03-2008, 06:18 PM
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E pur si muove
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madtuna
I just remember watching it live.
I saw two bloody great airliners fly smack into them and later on they fell down. No doco or otherwise will ever convince me I didn't see what I saw or that it was anything other than an act of terrorism.
A good friend lost her only daughter in tower one, she'd been in her new job all of two days |
The documentary under debate in no way disputes these facts. It really questions who was responsible for the planning and execution. It also showed evidence which everybody chooses to ignore. No one on this forum even acknowledges this evidence. I suppose this is typical of the human race. Im allright Jack **** the rest of you.
Once again I express my condolences to the victims and survivors of a truly evil and cowardly act for dubious purposes.
Regards
Steve
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03-03-2008, 06:37 PM
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an overactive imagination
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Erlistoun WA
Posts: 592
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"No one on this forum even acknowledges this evidence. I suppose this is typical of the human race. Im allright Jack **** the rest of you."
I can't comment on a doco I haven't seen.
p.s. looking forward to your next final post
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03-03-2008, 07:18 PM
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E pur si muove
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 494
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[quote=madtuna;30293
p.s. looking forward to your next final post [/quote]
Touche
At least now I know you are reading my posts.
I hereby notify every one of my intention to continue posting on this topic.
Regards
Steve 
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03-03-2008, 07:29 PM
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E pur si muove
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Ward
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Thanks Peter
You are the first to post a logical and reasonable rebuttal to the argument presented in the documentary.
Regards
Steve
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03-03-2008, 08:48 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hahndorf, South Australia
Posts: 4,373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skwinty
Thanks Peter
You are the first to post a logical and reasonable rebuttal to the argument presented in the documentary.
Regards
Steve |
Sigh! (to quote you!)
Isn't this what I said/implied at the get go - both viewpoints are worthy of examination IMHO?
I side with you Steve (and Night Owl)on lots of the issues discussed in this post, but some aspects don't add completely up for me, and it's those aspects that stop me from committing to the idea fully! I said both arguments have holes - but some have more than others!!!
A couple of questions I have - hope someone can post a link to an answer!!!!
eg...
Building 7 must be explained - obvious demolition: now, question is could the emergency services do an "emergency" demolition if deemed necessary, given that building 7 had been omfire and at risk since the initial attacks early morning? Otherwise, the inside job theory is a valid one,
WTC 1&2- controlled demolition theory - how much "explosive" material would be needed to bring down these structures. I think it would be an involved/very visible process to prepare for this...how could this be done in TWO of the busiest, secure buildings in the world without being noticed and commented on retrospectively by employees, residents (and visitors) of both buildings?
Fear of reprisal doesn't explain it given the subsequent discussion by other eyewitnesses to the event - firefighters, police etc. Why the silence with regard to the implementation phase? Common sense would suggest that preparations to demolish 2 of the tallest buildings in the world would not go un-noticed!!?? ...or are THEY that good!!!
In my youtube/google video viewing I've only seen one guy who stated something about some level of maintenance/easing up of security prior to the attacks - one guy!!!!!!
To me for any 'conspiracy' to hold then the devil's in the detail! Granted, this is one aspect in a rich fabric of dodgy aspects that occurred on 9/11 - pentagon...small hole/big plane/no wreckage, "lets roll" aircraft - no wreckage!!! The list goes on...
Please explain! 
ps...Thanks Peter - just looked at your second link, at the foot of the page it states that a demoltion job of such a scale would take a team of 12 doing nothing else but planting explosives about 72 days to pull off! That's a hole that needs explaining!!!!!
pps...from same link, security eased up for a 5 day period prior to attacks - could demolition prep be done in that period!? Or does Ockham's razor still apply?
And, before there's a plethora of posts of Iraqi's being strafed with bullets - please think about the question! Would it be possible to prepare the WTC's for demolition covertly?
"All the best" seems a strange thing to say in such a thread!!!
Last edited by dugnsuz; 03-03-2008 at 09:12 PM.
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03-03-2008, 09:30 PM
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E pur si muove
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugnsuz
The whole 9/11 conspiracy thing has as many holes as the government explanations when you start to look at it (and I have).
Ockham's razor has to be employed at the end of the day I think as to which side of the fence one plants one's feet.
Doug
ps...link to Improbable Collapse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUMKP...eature=related
"...you know what you have to do!" |
Hi Doug
Yes you did say that. However after you posted this, I posted what I thought were 5 reasonable arguments portrayed by the documentary. I was looking for a rebuttal to those arguments. If you review the posts I had to ask again for those rebuttals because the general thrust of the debate was that the complicity issue was BS, uninformed and a whole lot of denial with nothing to back it up.
I also said that if there was complicity it wouldnt surprise me given the history and track records of not only all governments but specifically the US.
I am willing to accept any ones argument provided it is based on logical and reasonable evidence. The evidence presented by Steven Jones after one viewing seemed logical and reasonable , however I would like to think of myself as a fair and intelligent person hence asking for any rebuttals (and facts) to oppose the documentary evidence.
Thank you all for participating in this debate, it has been educational to say the least.
Regards
Steve
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03-03-2008, 10:15 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hahndorf, South Australia
Posts: 4,373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skwinty
... hence asking for any rebuttals (and facts) to oppose the documentary evidence.
Thank you all for participating in this debate, it has been educational to say the least.
Regards
Steve |
Hi Steve and any others interested,
Rebuttal...
What about the questions I posted last?
WTC 1&2 'look' like controlled demolitions ,but how could it be done, given th logistics involved in such a task!? As part of a theory that question must be addressed.
WTC 7 looks like a classic controlled demolition - could it be 'pulled' on the day so to speak? If not, then the demolition had to have been prepared, installed and in place prior to 9/11 - how was that done!?
Last edited by dugnsuz; 03-03-2008 at 10:26 PM.
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03-03-2008, 10:51 PM
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E pur si muove
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 494
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Hi Doug
I watched another dvd called "911 the cover up" over the weekend.
This was of poor quality and quite difficult to understand.
I didnt download or purchase either.The dvds were given to me by a friend.
According to these dvds, the opportunity for planting the explosive devices came a few weeks prior to 9/11 where they state that because of low occupancy rates in the towers people were moved around quite frequently and complete floors were locked off.Security was doubled and on 24 hour shifts.Tenants reported loud noises and vibrations being caused by heavy objects being moved around as well as drilling.
As far as building 7 was concerned the building was apparently occupied by the CIA and the IRS and both of these are secretive organisations. So no telling there. The devices could have been planted any time prior to the 9th.
Once again these are the opinions of the makers of the dvd.
I have read the rebuttals to the 911 conspiracy theories and they are also logical and reasonable.
I suppose the whole issue is like a coin with 3 sides.
Head tails and somewhere in between (ie the edge).
Its back to holes in both arguments.
On the other hand, according to "Quantum Theory" every thing has holes in and we exist in all possible histories.
Regards
Steve 
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03-03-2008, 11:21 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hahndorf, South Australia
Posts: 4,373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skwinty
Its back to holes in both arguments.
On the other hand, according to "Quantum Theory" every thing has holes in and we exist in all possible histories.
Regards
Steve
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Quantum or conspiracy - it's all theory mate!
Check these 9/11 'classics' (you may have seen most already)
9/11 - ripple effect
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay...arch&plindex=1
In Plane Sight
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay...arch&plindex=0
Loose Change - Final Cut
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay...arch&plindex=0
Loose Change Makers v's Popular Mechanics debate
http://video.google.com.au/videoplay...arch&plindex=6
Wish I could find the Scandinavian 9/11 documentary where in an attempt to disprove that the Pentagon attack was impossible in a passenger jet, the presenter with no flying experience repeatedly flies a 757 simulator bang into the same point on a virtual Pentagon in every attempt using the same alleged flight path as the hijackers. Whether that's what hit the Pentagon is altogether another matter!
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03-03-2008, 11:49 PM
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E pur si muove
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 494
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dugnsuz
Wish I could find the Scandinavian 9/11 documentary where in an attempt to disprove that the Pentagon attack was impossible in a passenger jet, the presenter with no flying experience repeatedly flies a 757 simulator bang into the same point on a virtual Pentagon in every attempt using the same alleged flight path as the hijackers. Whether that's what hit the Pentagon is altogether another matter!
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In 2001 Microsoft was just about to release their latest version of Flight Simulator when the attack happened.
Microsoft recalled all the cd,s and removed the twin towers from the scenery.The towers have never reappeared in their subsequent flight simulator scenery.
As Microsoft states wrt their flight simulator "As Close as it Gets".
They might have felt that their product had been used as a training aid.
A bit like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.
Regards
Steve
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04-03-2008, 08:08 AM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hahndorf, South Australia
Posts: 4,373
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skwinty
In 2001 Microsoft was just about to release their latest version of Flight Simulator when the attack happened.
Microsoft recalled all the cd,s and removed the twin towers from the scenery.The towers have never reappeared in their subsequent flight simulator scenery.
As Microsoft states wrt their flight simulator "As Close as it Gets".
They might have felt that their product had been used as a training aid.
A bit like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.
Regards
Steve
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Didn't know that!
The sim used in the doco was the real thing though, used to train pilots.
Doug
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04-03-2008, 04:28 PM
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Registered User
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Warrnambool
Posts: 12,801
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Boy, look at what I have started, by just flicking through a 35 year old Australian Post. very interesting discussion indeed.
Leon
Maybe I should bring out the very last edition of Australian Post, I have three copies in mint, never opened condition.
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