Zeitgeist, conspiracy theory gone mad!!??

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by dugnsuz

Alex, your wish is my command!!
http://zeitgeistmovie.com/transcript.htm
Can't wait to see what you make of it!
This transcript only covers Pt 1 of the movie.
Pts 2 and 3 are the conspiratorial guts so to speak!
Check out the review link a few posts up for a pretty fair assesement of the whole thing.
All the best
Doug

Thanks Doug I will have a peek but always remember this........

things just are.. they are good or bad upon our qualification...

and extending this principle one can find sinister reasons for things if you look at it that way but often at the top of the game there is too much in fighting for a real plan to be kept on track...

So I enter with an open mind determined to come out with the same..lets see what it does for/to me

alex

[dugnsuz (Doug)]

Originally Posted by Mark

Yep..

Big Money and Christianity have enslaved mankind. We are all just mindless pawns in a damned world.

..or something like that.

Don't forget the 911 conspiracy Mark...that's the interesting part!

[xelasnave]

Well I read all of it...
So to me it says there is nothing new and that many of our faiths are simply a rehash of older stories... that is reasonable.. but hardly sinister really.

Civilization can not exist without an authority and we have for most of our civilization the notion of a God... The heathens were on the same track in so far as they wanted to give purpose and meaning to the things they observed in nature and in the sky... And remember this when humans tell a story they use examples and so often the example becomes the story.

Our science does the same... the concept of virtual particles..in an effort to describe that there be a point that a particle can not be measured and at anopther it can be measured that story became..particles "pop" into and out of existence...no they were always there what was being said was a point where they could not be reasonably determined...yet that story became..they "pop" into and out of existence...scientist took the example and ran away with it... taking the notion as literal.. if you look at the ideas behind the inflation concept you will note its dependance on the "pop into and out of existence" such that the "theory" developed on that notion not the reality. And so in an effort to save the big bang theory a notion based on a false premise is now sited as its authority...does not do them any good and for me it makes it hard to continue with the big bang notion..yet I still entertain the concept and rather than throw the whole idea out hope that another explaination can be found to offer a reason how everything although wide spread could be the same without inflation..there is no doubt a better reason than inflation yet it is no seized upon as being a fact when it takes little effort to see it discredited.
There is no conspiracy here only a lack of effort to graso the problem that existed before the inflation notion "saved" the big bang.

Without authority what is the alternative..I am an athiest but I believe we need God... I never seek to change the ideas of those folk who come to the door to spread the good word.. I tell thenm they are doing a fine job and offer them support..most will turn the dogs on them.. why do that even if one conceeds they may be misguided they are at least trying to help humanity. They are not there to rob you they are good folk doing what they believe is a good job... They are not part of a plot to control the world within their reality.

I like to think people will respect an abstract notion such as "the God of the mountain will get you if you cut down the trees" and such an approach will get better results than saying "if you cut down the tree a mud slide will wipe out the village".. the result using God has a chance that the trees will not be cut down as common sence rarely prevails. A fear of the absstract is better than a fear of what must be obvious.

I find it comforting there is a body in the form of the Church (and all those who represent what some loosley call "desert religions" that seeks to control things as without that control what will most follow... their greed and self interest is the only answer. With all its problems the Church is better than anything on offer..well what is on offer as an alternative...man has none yet.

Does the Church and others of faith guide the pawns..yes of course they do ..I see no problem with that.

Do people with power and money wish to support authority ..yes of course but what is wrong with that.. most choose on the basis of opting for the lesser evil and that is what one must see as good.

I find nothing terrible in the fact that much of Christian teachings may have come form earlier times. In fact I find comfort in that.. sure it creates dogma problems but finally you have to keep it simple..you cant spend time explaining it all really.

My ideas re gravity have turned out to be ideas that were around in the mid 1700's. It is clear to me that the Church did not want to let the ever eroding power of God decline further a let the power behind gravity be assigned a mechanical base.

Newton's recognition of this fact made him steer away from assigning a mechanical operation to gravity and leaving the force of gravity to being the force of God. He clearly at some stage entertained the notion of "push" gravity and yet finally said no more than the force of gravity was due to God.

Dr A also a very smart man beautifully side stepped giving gravity a force. no doubt a recognition that to offer a machinery would have the Church being placed in a difficult position with yet another power of God being presented as a scientific explanation.

Have you not ever thought it strange that both these men said nothing about the machinery being merely content to explain the sums?? They I expect did not want to suffer the same fate as a certain man who used a telescope for the first time...and consider that..here you have a man who showed his mates the view..the truth and his mates jumped on him..all the time knowing he spoke the truth and that they had seen that truth with their own eyes.

I feel the explanation of gravity suffers the same way..the history is fascinating.

But what really goes on is a smart man looks to find the top gun... so in the case of Newton being the top gun ..Dr A offered a better view of gravity and very cleverly following Newton's approach to leave the actual force more or less in God's hands...

I have no problem with that approach as finally many need the Church or God to manage their life and not confront the inescapable reality that there is probably no meaning in our lives and that we just are..

Banking to go one better asked who is the top gun..again Newton was the top gun in banking fame...for it was he that established the gold standard... so some man wanted to go better..get rid of the Gold Standard and try my better thought out system.. and so the Gold Standard fell into the "old fashion" basket.. this is the way things go..

When I went into real estate I worked out the top gun made 6 sales to the first person he showed a house..so that what I had to beat..I sold the first house I showed a buyer in a 12 month period..absolutley beating his record and announcing that I was the new top gun...we all do it.
When I went to a new school rather than fight my way thru the pecking order I just worked out who was the top gun and flogged him..saved heaps of fights.

Now others come along and present this as a conspiracy of the Jews as if they are somehow a group intent on this control... as if they have an secret plan..this is not the case ..it just so happens they have better intellectuals so those after the top guns may well come from that group.. but it is not a sinister thing.. the disciplines of the religion will develop smart people and their attention to education will mean they will produce a better than a fair share of high class thinkers.
I see no problem with that ..it is a case of ..things just are... but it ticks me off those who point to them being involved in a conspiracy... I have never met a Jew I did not like and respect.

The big bang I have always believed was more driven by religious considerations than being good science...

There is little difference between the Churches approach. .creation in 6 days and the approach of the big bang which really gives creation only a period of some 30 seconds, this being the period of inflation...

Both approaches to creation take us to a point where the only reasonable explanation is the action of God...

I see no problem with this either because we all need something to believe in... ask yourself how empty I feel when I conclude there was no start to the Universe (my belief) and that the Universe must in fact be infinite...

it leaves one feeling that nothing matters...and I suspect for most if they were to arrive at this conclusion they would hold onto no morality such that they could justify any action as not relevant to reality...

Fortunately I follow the Christian teachings and beileve in the principles offerred by Jesus Christ even if I dont believe he was the Son of God or that he rose from death... it is a strong faith wherein I took the ideas that were useful and worked those wonderful ideals....without falling for a total rejection because I found some of the story impossible to accept or that it may have been a rehash of earlier ideas from an earlier civilization.

I would be very careful with the notions behind the movie..even if I have not seen it..I feel I can get the drift... it has that US and them flavor about it..and you all must know as far as I see the world it is just ..."US" (not the USA either for those who may think I was having a shot).. I mean humanity as a whole..

ANd so thats briefly what I think.

alex

[xelasnave]

Sorry if the spelling is a bit off but that was off the top of my head I was in a hurry and have to go.
Hope no one ifnds it offensive as that is never my intention
alex

[xelasnave]

Back again.

For someone to say the following that I quote hereunder...a quote on the text summing up the movie...and then not offer an alternative..given the general need for authority to maintain civilization is not constructive.

Dont destroy things if you have nothing better to offer ...

If it is so bad how about an alternative..not a utopia that we have no hope to achieve but an alternative that will work as well or better...

I think about the proposition and given humanities short history I can not suggest one.....

this is the final para of the text you can not blame everything on a group that is not going to do anyone any good at all...

quote..........
Christianity, along with all other theistic belief systems, is the fraud of the age. It served to detach the species from the natural world, and likewise, each other. It supports blind submission to authority. It reduces human responsibility to the effect that "God" controls everything, and in turn awful crimes can be justified in the name of Divine Pursuit. And most importantly, it empowers those who know the truth but use the myth to manipulate and control societies. The religious myth is the most powerful device ever created, and serves as the psychological soil upon which other myths can flourish

end of quote

alex

[xelasnave]

I see little in the Christian faith that encourages evil ....the blame for evil can however be laid at the feet of individuals who will use whatever they grasp to conduct their evil deeds..

alex

[Kal (Andrew)]

I got a copy of this video and called bulls**t after loading up starry night software, going back 2000 years and realising that the astronomy stuff they say is all made up.

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Kal

I got a copy of this video and called bulls**t after loading up starry night software, going back 2000 years and realising that the astronomy stuff they say is all made up.

So they have even altered the software to cover up the truth...absolute proof for the author of the movie I suspect

alex

[xelasnave]

There is some nasty stuff out there and if you think of the top gun principle it is easy to understand the motivations behind so many folk..
Wish I could see the movie but thinking about it does one have to indulge the hatred behind these things really to call them out...

Folk are always having a go at the "other side" the Muslim religion for example but just think about this ..how would you like all those committed to that belief with nothing to keep them for the most part doing the right thing..they have an authority in place which manages millions of folk and that must be more good than bad.... at least they have a basic structure of decency...notwithstanding the fact that some see it their duty to kill all non believers..it is probably a small part of everything really... what would one put in its place... I can not suggest a better way for them .. they need something.. and again most of the evil from that direction has more to do with power quests by individuals rather than a general problem with the belief .. so one has to draw the good points and tolerate the problems I feel.

It would be great if as a species we were better than we are but we are not...

alex

[VuLe110]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Folk are always having a go at the "other side" the Muslim religion for example but just think about this ..how would you like all those committed to that belief with nothing to keep them for the most part doing the right thing..they have an authority in place which manages millions of folk and that must be more good than bad.... at least they have a basic structure of decency...notwithstanding the fact that some see it their duty to kill all non believers..it is probably a small part of everything really... what would one put in its place...

alex

more police and prisons?

jk, im just being facetious

[xelasnave]

I have often thought about a world where we do not have religion and finally see it does more good that bad... there is a reality we can not escape from... the great mass of humans need to be controlled somehow and an alternative to the current system is beyond me...

I expect that for so many humans it is only the prospect of getting caught or the prospect that God will know of their deeds that prevents them from being bad.

I dont think that approach is unreasonable so without those fears where would we be... look at our society so many only obey the Law because of the fear of being caught, so many manage that fear and determine the likelyhood of being caught is remote so they do as they please.

The reality of our society is even if you are caught penalties are not harse so little guides folk who have come to that determination.

It would be nice if folk could self regulate and not need someone to keep them is line..as there will never be enough police in proportion to the number of wrongdoers and certainly never enough prisons one must thank the role that religion plays in our world simply to regulate the behaviour of humans.

I am an athiest but confess my moral fibre comes from many years learning of the teachings of Jesus at Sunday school... I wonder if not for that would I be "decent" because I certainly know the odds as to being caught and if caught the limited ability of the Law to convict, and the lack of determination of our society to punish...lets face it our law is about rehabilitation and not retribution for a wrong.

I think the abandonment of "an eye for an eye" in favour of rehabilitation is ineffectual in putting the fear of being caught into the population.
We put down a dog that has bitten someone yet a human can torture and kill that child and we feel that wrongdoer deserves the opportunity of rehabilitation...the dog coulld be retrained with more hope of rehabilitation than so many evil humans... we avoid capital punishement for the fear an inoccent human may get wrongly convicted... strange approach to avoid capital punishement in cases when the evidence of wrongdoing is beyond doubt.
Think of those terrible murders where the bodies were stored in drum in a disused bank..do you think those murders deserve less than their victims, do you think they will be better folk when they are released..I sence an evil there that is beyond control.
AS to the Muslim "problem" when you think of their numbers.. the trouble we get from the fundamentalists is minimal to what it could be... where will we be when their approach is the same as ours...I can not see a method that will rival the control offerred by their religious approach...daily they are reminded that God is looking on and I am sure that does more for some sort of peace than we appreciate.
Thanks for pushing the soap box in front of me.
alex