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  #21  
Old 10-07-2007, 12:07 AM
gary
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Thumbs up Chasing the elusive celestial pole

Hi Leon,

When discussing the topic of polar alignment, one needs to
differentiate between what is practical and what is the actual
reality.

Please allow me to explain.

If the ends justifies the means, what most amateur
astrophographers are really seeking is no discernible image
anomaly as a result of polar misalignment.

However, in reality, different parts of the sky have different
optimal polar axis points.

One practical reason for this is atmospheric refraction. The
effect of refraction is to cause objects to appear slightly
higher than they really are. At the zenith, there is no
displacement whereas at the equator, the displacement is about
half a degree. Even at 45 degrees elevation, the effect accounts
for about 1 arcminute.

To complicate the matter even further, the current barometric
pressure and temperature also impact upon refraction and the
optimal polar axis for imaging any one point in the sky and
strictly speaking have to be taken into account as well.

Refraction will also mean your circular trails are never quite
perfectly circular, not unless you image by pointing at the
zenith from the geographical north or south pole itself.

In practice, unless your exposure time is long, it is unlikely
to make a difference. However, the concept that there is some
magic point in the sky that one can align the polar axis of the
mount that results in optimal imaging in all parts of the sky is
a myth.

If one sought absolute perfection for the sake of it, the
reality would be that one would have to continually adjust the
mount in elevation whilst tracking.

And it gets worse.

Since tracking is the first differential of pointing, the
tracking rate would need to continually change as well.

And it gets worse still.

All mounts have geometric, gravitational flexure and more often
than not bearing eccentricity errors. Not only does this make
optimal polar alignment difficult, for the perfectionist, some
of these errors make it absolutely impossible. For example, if
the RA and Dec axes of the mount have not been constructed to be
at absolute right angles to each other, then there is a region
around the scope's polar axis to which it can never point. The
same is true if the mount's Dec axis and the nominal pointing
direction of the scope is not at right angles.

For this reason, the drift method is not the gold standard for
polar alignment that many mistakenly think it to be. It can't
take into account all the other errors within the mount.

A simple one, two or three star alignment is no better
as is simply perfoming a GOTO to a few stars.

Instead, to have a chance of getting closer, one needs to
perform a more sophisticated analysis, taking into account the
effects of refraction, mount errors and polar misalignment, all
at the same time. This is achieved by performing a star pointing
test on a reasonably large number of stars distributed across
the sky and then using sophisticated analytical methods to
separate the polar misalignment from the mount fabrication
errors.

All of the world's major professional observatories, including
the Kecks, Geminis', VLTs, do exactly this and almost all of
them employ a software package originally written within the
professional astronomical engineering community called TPOINT.

The Losmandy Gemini system also performs mount errors analysis
as does the Argo Navis Telescope Pointing Analysis System (TPAS)
that we happen to produce. However, that is not the point of
this response.

The real point is that you should use whatever means to polar
align your mount at a point that is optimal for the point in the
sky you plan on imaging. The best methods are to use a
sophisticated analysis technique such as TPOINT, TPAS, etc.
Any system that claims mount error compensation but only uses,
say, three stars, is lacking, to say the least. The modeling system
in your Gemini will undoubtedly give an excellent result.
However, keep in mind that a good package should always provide
statistical metrics with regards the analysis, otherwise the
results become more difficult to prove. TPOINT and TPAS both
provide such feedback.

For many amateurs, the practical reality is that aligning the
scope's polar axis to the refracted pole rather than the true
pole and combining it with guiding software that will keep
you on track will tend to provide excellent results.

Hope this is helpful and allows you to concentrate on enjoying
your imaging rather than chasing a pole that really is a
shifting target itself.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place
Mount Kuring-Gai NSW 2080
Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au
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  #22  
Old 10-07-2007, 08:22 AM
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leon
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Gary, thank you indeed for that very informative response to this interesting thread.

I think I understand what you are saying.

Please don't take this personally, but if i were to follow that procedure each time i wished to do some imaging, I would abandon Astronomy and give all my stuff away, and take up stamp collecting.

Although I do my work in a strange way, i am enjoying myself, and having fun, so to speak, and i feel that is what it is all about.

I do not wish to be the top astro photographer in this field, but simply do what i do, and hang the occasional image one my wall, although not perfect.

I would not be enjoying the experience if i were to do what you suggested each time i went out side.

But thank you Gary, at my age i doubt if i would ever get to that level of expertise before i die, but one never knows.

Cheers Leon
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  #23  
Old 10-07-2007, 09:11 AM
Doug
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I want!!
I got no free cash!!
Drat!
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  #24  
Old 10-07-2007, 10:05 AM
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JohnG (John)
Looking Down From Above

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Hi Gary, nice to hear from you again.

What you have written was an interesting and well written response to alignment and associated problems, unfortunately a lot of us don't have the funds or equipment to approach this in an advanced sort of way, me included.

Therefore I would still suggest that a good Drift Alignment, old fashioned as it is, is still a good way to get a reasonabley accurate pole alignment. I would love to have T-Point etc but in the real world some of us are limited to what we have.

The current Level 4 Gemini will show all the various flexures, pointing errors, cone angles etc if you wish, in fact any error you might think of. These can be accessed through the Hand Controller, or better still, if you are running an ASCOM driver, though the Pointing Model menu, or if you have the companion Gemini Control Center program.

This why I do an extremely accurate Drift Align and using the Gemini's Pointing Model, coupled with an old ST-4 autoguider, very few of my photographs will show any trailing, the autoguider handles the errors without any problem.

Cheers

JohnG

Last edited by JohnG; 10-07-2007 at 10:37 AM.
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  #25  
Old 10-07-2007, 11:33 AM
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JohnG (John)
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I have attached the Modeling Parameters menu from the current ASCOM driver to show some of what is taken into account when a Pointing Model is produced.

Cheers
Attached Thumbnails
Click for full-size image (ASCOM (Large).jpg)
135.3 KB27 views

Last edited by JohnG; 10-07-2007 at 12:21 PM.
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  #26  
Old 29-07-2007, 09:08 PM
gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leon View Post
Gary, thank you indeed for that very informative response to this interesting thread.

I think I understand what you are saying.

Please don't take this personally, but if i were to follow that procedure each time i wished to do some imaging, I would abandon Astronomy and give all my stuff away, and take up stamp collecting.

Although I do my work in a strange way, i am enjoying myself, and having fun, so to speak, and i feel that is what it is all about.

I do not wish to be the top astro photographer in this field, but simply do what i do, and hang the occasional image one my wall, although not perfect.

I would not be enjoying the experience if i were to do what you suggested each time i went out side.

But thank you Gary, at my age i doubt if i would ever get to that level of expertise before i die, but one never knows.

Cheers Leon
Hi Leon,

Thanks for the post and I appreciate exactly where you are coming
from. As I mentioned, I hope my comments will help you concentrate
on just getting out and enjoying yourself.

However, I wanted to just make a quick technical qualification.

In my response, I recommended best practice would be to perform
a star pointing test and an analysis of the data and that is indeed true.
I also mentioned that in order to perform this analysis, one needs to
sample a reasonable number of stars scattered across the sky, which
is also true.

However, what I did not take the time to point out is that once you
have performed such an analysis you can then save any persistent
mount error terms into a pointing model for use on a subsequent
observing session. The good news is to re-use that model for a mount
that is only roughly polar aligned requires you to sample perhaps as few
as four stars on a subsequent observing session.

Initially, the various error terms within the mount are entangled
in a complex way. A long sampling run allows you to unravel this knot.
Once the errors are know, this then allows you to hold 'fixed' those
error terms that are likely to be persistent from session to session, for
example, any non-perpendicularity between the RA and Dec axes.
One can then re-synchronize any non-peresient terms, such as polar
misalignment on a portable mount, using a much shorter sampling run.

The good news is that this takes only minutes to perform and is subtstantially
faster than a drift test with all the benefits of accuracy as discussed earlier.

Anyway, I hope this additional qualification is helpful as I would not
like to leave anyone going away with the impression that they need
to spend most of the night performing a sampling run in order to
polar align their mounts from night to night.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au
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  #27  
Old 29-07-2007, 09:27 PM
gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
The current Level 4 Gemini will show all the various flexures, pointing errors, cone angles etc if you wish, in fact any error you might think of.
Hi John,

Thanks for the post and great to hear from you again. I did note a few
error terms that are missing from the mix, namely those associated with
eccentricities in the RA and Dec axes. We've seen examples on the G-11
and other mounts where these can contribute several arcminutes to the
Root-Mean-Square pointing performance of the mount.

There is an case study on our web site here which might be of interest -
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au/group_post_5573/
Be sure to grab the free Adobe SVG plugin to view the graphics -
http://www.adobe.com/svg/viewer/install/main.html

A good autoguider, as you point out, can do a great job of 'mopping-up'
some of the residual errors.

Thanks again for the post.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au
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  #28  
Old 29-07-2007, 09:51 PM
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ballaratdragons (Ken)
The 'DRAGON MAN'

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Geez, I think I'll join Leon in the stamp collecting club!

After I do a 3 star alignment (EQ6) I can GoTo anywhere in the sky and the object is in the FOV on my monitor, and that is with the Toucam which is equal to a 6mm EP!!! That sounds pretty accurate to me. And for long exposures, my autoguiding set-up works fine.
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  #29  
Old 29-07-2007, 10:02 PM
Doug
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I think most modern Goto systems have atmospheric refraction factored into their calculations; a natural enough spin off from having longitude inputted.
Tpoint, at around $249USD is an expensive toy for an occasional use item, or something for the idle rich.

Doug
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  #30  
Old 29-07-2007, 10:12 PM
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ballaratdragons (Ken)
The 'DRAGON MAN'

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug View Post
I think most modern Goto systems have atmospheric refraction factored into their calculations; a natural enough spin off from having longitude inputted.
Tpoint, at around $249USD is an expensive toy for an occasional use item, or something for the idle rich.

Doug
I know for a fact that Vixens Skysensor2000PC has asmospheric refraction compensation.

Dunno about our EQ6's though
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  #31  
Old 30-07-2007, 12:07 AM
gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ballaratdragons View Post
Geez, I think I'll join Leon in the stamp collecting club!

After I do a 3 star alignment (EQ6) I can GoTo anywhere in the sky and the object is in the FOV on my monitor, and that is with the Toucam which is equal to a 6mm EP!!! That sounds pretty accurate to me. And for long exposures, my autoguiding set-up works fine.
Hi Ken,

Good to hear.

What this says is that your mount/OTA probably has at best only small fabrication
errors, which is exactly what you want. If your mount/OTA were entirely free
of geometric, flexure and bearing eccentricity errors, then you would only
require a two star alignment, not three.

However, there are some users who are less fortunate than you.
It's a bit like having impaired vision. If one has twenty-twenty vision,
then who cares about eye glasses or laser surgery. However, if
everything always appeared totally blurred, the prospect of corrective
lenses or surgery would be heaven-sent. It's the same with telescope
pointing. if you don't have the problem, then you probably would
not be interested in the cure. Move on, nothing to see here. However,
if, like some users, you have invested subtantially in a mount to find it
points like a bad shopping trolley steers, then you will want to know
how to fix it.

The problem is that when the mount has more than one type of pointing
error and you add polar misalignment into the mix, then something as
simple as a one, two or even three star alignment just doesn't
cut the mustard. For that, more sophisticated analysis is required.
However, the good news is that as long as the errors are systematic
(no system can account for random errors such as a sudden mirror flop),
then there is a prescription available.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au

Last edited by gary; 30-07-2007 at 12:49 AM.
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  #32  
Old 30-07-2007, 12:29 AM
gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ballaratdragons View Post
I know for a fact that Vixens Skysensor2000PC has asmospheric refraction compensation.

Dunno about our EQ6's though
Hi Ken,

Our own Argo Navis performs atmospheric refraction compensation,
and takes into accounts effects such as refraction and nutation.

Refraction is one of those transformations that unless taken into account
can degrade the whole-sky RMS pointing performance of the telescope.

Refraction can be as much as about half-a-degree down on the horizon
and about an arcminute at 45 degrees elevation. Which brings us back
to the original line of this thread with regards the pursuit of some
"holy grail" exact polar alignment position. There is no such point and
perfectionists will be disappointed. A good compromise for such
people is to aim for the refracted pole.

Best regards

Gary Kopff
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.

Last edited by gary; 30-07-2007 at 12:50 AM.
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