Astronomy in Schools

[xelasnave]

Thats really interesting Ken it is great to listen to someone who knows him and be privelledged to get a small insite to the man . I have always had the impression he was genuine but where I formed that impression I do not know. I figured from his music where he stood on stuff and if you see him tell him he has a fan in me both of his music and the messages I found contained therein. He always gave his all in a performance and dont get me wrong his presence in politics hopefully will count for something. I think he is a lawyer as well you may be able to confirm that as I am not really sure.
Yes there could be hope as part of a science class, but it is already clear that many folk are helping promote the interest and even that must help. I had never thought of needing an official view for kids in astronomy .. another issue covered we are moving forward with this I can feel it .
alex

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

Yes Alex, Peter was a Property lawyer. And an environmental & Youth affairs Activist. He was a busy boy before he sold himself into politics (which was inevitable with his background). Here is a page explaining his past enthusiastic 'activist' life: http://www.petergarrett.com.au/c.asp?id=8

I honestly do wish they would increase the amount of Astronomy (all facets) in schools as we are on the brink of amazing discoveries and journeys. Our kids need to be kept up to date as they may be involved! Or their kids might. A sort of 'Preparation for the inevitable'.

[mickoking]

Sadly I don't think there are enough scientists in Australia not to mention Astronomers. The recourses boom (lots of high paying jobs in the mines) combined with high HECS fees conspire to drain our country of scientific talent.

[xelasnave]

Thank you Ken for posting the link I wonder would he support the idea of astronomy along the lines we are coming up with.. I bet he would see the merit of the idea. He, Mr John Howard and me have something in common after all , most of my work was conveyancing at an office in Hornsby. I think Mr Howard had an office at Eastwood do you know where Mr Peter Garrett was? Well if GW is going to be part of our lives we will need scientists by the truck load. Australian scientists have contributed so much to the world...
and Australians have lead the world in land titles as Mr Garret would tell you..Mr Torrens (hence the term Torrens Title) used the same idea as used for large ship registration which if you had to deal with the earlier system you could appreciate what a step forward that was.
One reason why our politics really works well is because of the lawyer content of parliment I mean look at so many countries that draw their pollies from military backgrounds .. there is a difference in approach that helps peaceful process in this country .. lots of places it is not good at all.
still how much better would we be if most MPs were astronomers or scientists
alex

[gaa_ian (Ian)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

You are a real life hero I understand where you are coming from I wish to do similar for those kids around Tabulam I think such an interest for them can give them hope... I would like to see astronomy used to support their beliefs rather than destroy them, I hate the way folk overlook their views of the Universe.. no better or worse than many views but such an indecent lack of respect and understanding is unfortunate.
Good luck with your work I am proud to know you.
alex

Gee ... Alex
It is a part time venture, and something I get a lot out of myself.
While I understand the lack of obvious science in their belief, there is hidden science in it that guides the way they live their lives & interact with their environment.

[xelasnave]

Sorry Mick your post slipped in but who could not but agree . We need a movie or a soapie any method of projecting the important role of scientists (and astronomers of course) and paint it as exciting which it is notwithstanding the "test" and stats etc .. show them as getting the girl etc all that stuff.. Attitudes expectations can be changed so easily.. heck if it were other things would there be a problem ..I think not.
alex

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

do you know where Mr Peter Garrett was?
alex

Nope, sorry Alex, never asked him.

If you think we have a shortage of Australian Scientists/Astronomers now, what will it be like in the near future if they don't introduce more school kids to it now.

But then, the Government has to have projects for them to do when they become Scientists or Astronomers or AstroPhysicists etc. I can't see the Australian Government spending much more on Science or Space research.

It seems as if it's something left to the US or the French or ESA.

[xelasnave]

gaa ian you are most welcome. I expect you have had the Milky Way explained to you by an elder if not encourage one to share with you the way they see it, surprising spiritual and scientific if you take a long draw of the bow.
Ken well they should happy to blow it on advertising crap ....oh why bother to make a list. We have to expect more from out Government if we expect more than we will get more.
Hey I remebered there is a ex real estate agent in Parliment pity he did not arrive until they sold off every bit of decent real estate we had.. what an unpunished crime that was... Same with state Government before the Games I was involved in listing most of the real estate in the state for one department and where did the money go.. one big party ... so Australian really..but what can you do.
alex

[OneOfOne (Trevor)]

I think McNaught has certainly done something to bring a little more interest to the general public. It is a real pity it was as such an inconvenient time! If it was later in the year, after daylight saving (have we saved enough daylight yet?) when the skies get darker at a more reasonable time, and when the kids were back at school it would have been even more popular. I am sure a number of schools would have asked for the local astronomical group to pay them a visit.

I do know that the ASV is already making plans for 2010, which marks the 400th aniversary of Gallileo pointing his scope at the heavens!

All we can really do is the maximum that we are prepared to do, I enjoy showing the skies to other people but I am not about to give up my day job to persue this interest and push it to the public...I enjoy my job and usually the surest way to kill a hobby/interest is to make it your job/life.

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

Well I believe astronomy can stand on its own, it doesn't need pop star's or superhero's to champion it. In my mind, there is nothing in the universe that can compare with the universe at large.

I think the kids of today are smart enough to see through rhetoric and marketing hype, hey they are savvy to Microsoft et.al from the age of 4. Let's give the kids more credit.

What they need is exposure to astronomy, once they walk up the hill and peer through their first telescope, they will see a sight that either in an instant captures them or not. If you are one of the ones that it has a profound effect on, then you are essentially hooked.

The next step is follow up via real world regular school observing projects in tandem with registered and sanctioned observatories as well as classes under the broad heading of science.

The observatories need to be paid a small fee for their time and effort but in return need to conform to a preplanned syllabus. There are a few too many 'wild' and 'free-thinking' well intentioned but inaccurate and potentially harmful amateur astronomers who could plant the wrong seed in a fertile mind.

Having a passion for astronomy and a desire to share it with others does not make a good teacher per se. Their needs to be structure because we need to make sure that a consistent message is being given out to all children. Then of course the problems set in, in terms of bureaucracy, having to wait whilst committees make their decisions on what is correct and what isn't.

It would be a very complex task to establish exactly what can reasonably taught as far as astronomy goes to young children, and when you consider the explosive speed of new discoveries and changing theory at present, it would be a brave group of academics that would actually sit down and chart the passage of learning.

Rather than a set doctrine, a path of fundamental discovery showing stars and planets, armed with a general background of physical science aimed at stirring the questions from within the student, would be the better approach.

Today's students can research the parts of astronomy/science that appeals to them, they are armed with the Internet, and have access to real time images the like of which was unimaginable 3 decades ago.

Try to remember back when you heard about how far the Sun was away from the Earth, for me this was in about 1965, I used only my imagination and the carefully chosen words of my teacher.

If the teacher had not been as excited as he was in telling me, I would have snored through that lesson as well as the others on the day. But I sensed the excitement in the teachers voice and although all he could use were words and a piece of chalk on a blackboard, he did light the wick which has burned vigorously ever since.

So, in conclusion, it's all about exposure, it's how astronomy is introduced to the children in the first place. Astronomy doesn't need a publicity agent, it can stand on its own. We should have more faith in our beloved astronomy, we are not geeks, we are not weirdos and intellectual types. We are just people from all walks of life and we all marvel in the unending panorama of the living creation of the universe.

let's figure out ways to get schools to include astronomy in their schedules, once exposed, the astronomy will take care of itself, it is, as we all know, mighty powerful stuff.

[xelasnave]

Thanks Tailwag for such a wonderful observation
you said
" let's figure out ways to get schools to include astronomy in their schedules, once exposed, the astronomy will take care of itself, it is, as we all know, mighty powerful stuff.."
I agree are and I am all ears .
alex

[xelasnave]

Are you wondering what is to the middle left of my new photo???
alex

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

I am all ears alex

Hmnnnn there is a line there, but I'll let it slide through to the keeper.

Okay, so how do we actually get the schools interested?

IMHO this battle should be fought on two fronts [1] Parents [2] Education Department. In the first instance, people power can cause change, if enough people march to the beat of the same drum.

If every parent who has a child at school, who is a member of this most prestigious forum, goes and speaks personally to the science teacher and offers to assist in setting up an observing night in association with their local amateur astronomy society or where one is not available, offers to get a few like minded souls together for the evening, then that is a start.

If the response and feedback to that was encouraging, Mike might consider a School or Kids only section on this forum, where 'Heavy' moderating would be enforced for the children's safety.

Eventually in time with discussion, a small fee could be paid towards the forum for it's beneficial role in teaching astronomy. Schools could submit lessons and project materials which would be accessed by the children making this forum an 'Australian Virtual School Observatory' AVSO for short, which would bring all children, especially those in remote areas together under the one umbrella.

The second area where pressure is needed to be exerted is the Department of Education. This can be done a number of ways, i.e. a petition signed by nearly 2,000 members and growing. An official letter from IIS to the minister, followed up by a persistent letter writing campaign from individual members of the forum, armed with the positive feedback and endorsement by the many science teachers recruited from the successful implementation of point 1 above.

The idea is to grow our numbers, numbers rule, numbers are king. If you ask for something and have 2 people, no chance, 20 people not much chance, 200 people (yawn), 2,000 people (perhaps next year), 20,000 people - you have my attention, now what was it you wanted????

Okay, so it's not ridiculous to think that this forum could not grow exponentially in time to 20k especially if we recruit the children to fight the war for us. The children in turn involve the schools which in turn swell our numbers...it's all about the numbers!

I know I am new to this forum, but I am not new to people power, if you get enough people pulling together you can achieve almost anything, within reason. If Mike in the first instance, aided by his moderators and advisors, sit down, think out a plan, make proper preparation and enact their plan with heartfelt commitment, it can happen.

This forum is IMHO after searching for others, the best, not only here (Australia) but probably anywhere. Therefore we need to stand up and be counted as a responsible lobby group for the advancement of our beloved astronomy. Not as a radical group, but via our love and passion for the stars. We can show everyone that IIS is the first, last and only place for serious astronomy debate, discussion and informal free astronomy culture.

If we formulate a plan to grow the IIS membership and have a clear set of guidelines as far as the children in schools are concerned, then we will over time grow to the point that we are listened to, and become instrumental in playing out the research aspects of astronomy in schools.

When the Department of Education endorse IIS as the forum of choice because of our demonstrated commitment to our school children, then our forum will gain prestige and respect and the momentum at that stage will be unstoppable.

This won't happen over night, but the fact that we are discussing it here thanks to Alex's initial thread is a start. Firstly we need to establish right here amongst us, how serious we really are about teaching our children in schools, we need to see this forum act as the catalyst to new growth in terms of interest.

If Mike and the King Pins were in favour of spearheading the drive to expand our children's knowledge through the forum (our Vox Populi if you like), which would work in tandem with our schools, I could see nothing other than a win-win scenario for all.

Incidentally, I have no hidden agenda here, my children are all grown adults, however I do have a parcel of grandchildren I hope get to see what I have seen, not because I am forcing it on them, but because it is the only thing the kids are talking about, because it's fun learning about it at school and following up via the IIS forum and also at your local amateur astronomy club on dedicated school observing nights.

In my short time here, I have read much, and gained a sense for the types of people, and it is my judgement that there are many who would willingly participate in a schools sub-committee in the planning stages. We already have a few teachers who have identified themselves, so we have a good start having them onside as valuable allies.

I don't want to appear too pushy, I know most here have been here many years more than me, and I respect that, but Alex asked the question and this answer is a possibility, nothing more at this stage than an idea. Please don't think I am forward but the thing in life I do best is think, I have spent a lot of time thinking about how to think and would like to pass the fruits of that on to you, if you like. Of course, you can hit the next button and totally ignore this, we are free - after all !!!

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Are you wondering what is to the middle left of my new photo???
alex

I'll byte?

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by tailwag

I'll byte?

My ear ... attempted humour building on your earlier curiosity
I think your observations and input are brillant .
I have a belief that simply by thinking about things and discussing same much the same as we do here it is a start.. your words bring it more to front of mind and as such maybe the idea moves forward. We have a start of something and I for one am going to do something more than talk about this, and follow the wonderful example of so many wonderful folk here... firstly by providing another night for the kids and also a night for the mothers of the kids, even the Dads if they can skip the pub for the occassion.AND secodly getting myself a list of all the MP,s and their emails so I can share my ideas with them. Started looking last night but found the particle stuff far more interesting..
I have had a little experience in moving things around politically and that taught me that in a matter of weeks you can change directions seemingly set in stone by the powers. Before we go in boots and all we need to develope what could be done and present a proposition that shows on the face of it a well thought out idea and reasonable expectations of implementation.
AND this is an excellent astronomy site something that could be a benefit for teachers if they knew of it... maybe an email to all schools advising them that it is here could help both this site and the prospects of promoting astronomy.
Again thanks Tailwag and remember if I write something that seems strange just laugh as it was no doubt meant to be funny but did not work as well as I expected . If offensive again unfortunate humour but certainly no intention to hurt anyone.
alex

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

Ah we have consensus in principle, what a magnificent start, your points are all valid and taken by me, but it's now up to others on this forum to voice their opinions, so that we can see that we are not the penultimate minority of just two.

It's clear that you and me both are more than willing to get involved in what ever capacity would suit us best, I know my strengths and weaknesses and I am sure that applies equally to you.

Lets wait for a day or two and see if this thread can gather any momentum by others voicing their willingness to do something, anything, whatever it takes to get the best out of each person. The task is a large one, so all hands will be needed if we are to succeed, and here is the best part of all, "regardless of how well we do, it is a worthwhile cause, thus we cannot fail".

[mickoking]

Originally Posted by tailwag

Okay, so how do we actually get the schools interested?

IMHO this battle should be fought on two fronts [1] Parents [2] Education Department. In the first instance, people power can cause change, if enough people march to the beat of the same drum.

If every parent who has a child at school, who is a member of this most prestigious forum, goes and speaks personally to the science teacher and offers to assist in setting up an observing night in association with their local amateur astronomy society or where one is not available, offers to get a few like minded souls together for the evening, then that is a start.

late last year I donated a 250mm Dob to my local primary school, soon we will be under the stars with the kids

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

Fantastic effort Micko, what a great community minded act. Top stuff

[xelasnave]

Micko you are a champion one man making a difference thats what we need
alex

[snowyskiesau]

Perhaps a few of the astronomy clubs could do something like this?

http://www.sonomaskies.org/striking_sparks.htm

There was an article about this in S&T a few years back but this doesn't appear to be
online. . The club members make the telescopes from donated parts or parts made by club members.