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  #21  
Old 04-02-2007, 12:54 PM
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Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
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Originally Posted by Ric View Post
Hi Chris, I haven't seen any mention of imaging through this setup. The fellow on the website you linked didnt mention it either.
I am assuming that you can but was wondering is there any advantage.

If you ever set it up at Cooma please let me know, I would quite happily walk there for a look.

Cheers
Rick - they'll be fabulous in Cooma. I'll let you know when they're coming down. It'll still be some months off... I have to build them first
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  #22  
Old 04-02-2007, 01:23 PM
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erick (Eric)
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Originally Posted by Omaroo View Post
Absolutely Ric It's going to POUR!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm currently trolling through a bunch of designs from all over the place. A few nice examples to consider.......
You'll need a pretty big "garden shed" for that fourth design!
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  #23  
Old 04-02-2007, 01:28 PM
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Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
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You'll need a pretty big "garden shed" for that fourth design!
Ah! The Mt Graham "LBT"! Yep - it'd be quite a "shed"!
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  #24  
Old 04-02-2007, 11:32 PM
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gaa_ian (Ian)
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Good to hear you are taking the plunge Chris, i am sure you will not be sorry !
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  #25  
Old 05-02-2007, 07:48 AM
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Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
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Originally Posted by gaa_ian View Post
Good to hear you are taking the plunge Chris, i am sure you will not be sorry !
Thanks Ian

It's going to be quite a challenge I think - but you and I both agree that the visual result is pretty special.

Cheers!
Chris
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  #26  
Old 05-02-2007, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Starkler View Post
Silly question time.

We all would be aware that the subjects viewed are too far away to yield any kind of true stereoscopic vision, so what advantages does a binocular telescope give over a standard one fitted with a binoviewer?
( Apologies for all ensuing typos here folks !)

Geoff, I've covered this question a few times on various forums but its a very natural one.

For all interested heres a brief run-down on the advantages. The bi-newt effect is not about looking for parallax geberated 3D.
The brain somehow doesn't get fully fooled by beamsplitting device, when it comes to using th eadavatages of binocular vision. . I have compared extensively a true 8" binocular and a 12" with binoviewer, and I find that many of the brains image processing capabilities ( most particularly looking at fainter objects ) do not cut in as well with a beamsplitter. To get the 40% contrast increase afforded by binocular vison, you need a randomly varying signal to each eye. The brain also seems to do more processing when looking through two seperate cores of the atmosphere, than just splitting the same image to each eye.

The contrast enhancing effect in a true Bi-Newt is something obvious, which I don't see so definitevly in a beamsplitter. There is a moment when you first look into the eyepieces where your brain gathers the information. In the course of half a second or so, you suddenly see the background sky which is normally noisy and speckly, turn velvet black and seem to drop off into infinity, leaving the object in stark contrast. Seeing the Horsehead easily without filters was a good example of this. The moment when you first look into the eyepieces and this enhanced visual contrast cuts in is a kind of moment of intuition that you are getting all that is possible that I never tire of. The views of globular star clusters are other -wordly becasue your brain does not make `boiling porridge ' of the view whilst it searches for pattern amongst the threshold stars that come and go. The binocular view makes it 20% more likely that you will glimpse and confirm a threshold star in each eye and youtr brain will fix it in view for you. My first view of Omega Centauri through a 20" binocular confronted me with an object I had apparently never seen before as my eyes weaved down through 3 dimensional voids amongst red giant stars.

Bi-Newts are not so much about pseudo-stereoscopic affects , although they are very pleasant, and some find them very powerful and attractive.. An effect called `chromatic stereopsis' makes red stars look closer than blue ones.

http://www.binoscope.co.nz/3d.htm

This can give globular and open star clusters a very 3 dimensional look. What I find pleasurable with a well adjusted pair , is the impression that I am looking through a spaceship porthole..the window edge beeing fairly close and the view being much further in the distance. I call this `presence'.

A true binocular also shows you more sky area than an equivelent mococular, about 4 times more sky area in fact. Take into account that we are limited to about F4.5 ( for most peoples taste ) regardless of aperture, and the equivelent monocular ( seeing a similar thing by sheer aperture rather than contrast ) is about 40% larger aperture for low light level subjects. Given that a binoviewer on a Newt needs a 1.2X to 1.4X barlow to reach focus and it is of much longer focal length anyway, as rule of thumb you can achieve 4 X more sky area in a single view with an equivelent binocular Newtonian.

There are also issues with cumulative errors inside binoviewers and spherical aberration in them when passing faster light cones through prisms.

There is no doubt that bi-Newts are a very specialised Item. For the majority of people , a larger aperture monocular will always be the easier and preferred option. There has been a little evolution going on lately with Dave Moorehous's 2 Bi-Newts and now Pauls 12". We are sticking to the same basic design and trying to improve on it without getting off track each time. I think we are getting to the heart of a design that can be easily tackled by anyone with a one truss Dob allready under their belts, or at least a methodical approach.

Hopefully we can have a pair at the SPSP for people to look through and experience some of these.

I'd like to add that I applaud the explosion in the market of availability of quality Binoviewers, they are a compact and neat solution to access binocular viewing and the more access to the simple humanity of using both eyes to explore the Universe the better

Mark

Last edited by Satchmo; 05-02-2007 at 02:19 PM.
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  #27  
Old 05-02-2007, 12:36 PM
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Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
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Thanks Mark! Good explanation.
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  #28  
Old 05-02-2007, 02:19 PM
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ving (David)
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v/sweet chris
keep us updated

never looked thru one of these b4!
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  #29  
Old 08-02-2007, 05:46 PM
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v/sweet chris
keep us updated

never looked thru one of these b4!
David - are you coming to SPSP? Mark will hopefully have a 14" set there. I'm not even sure I'll take any of my own scopes. Then again - I daren't look through these as mine are going to be 12's......
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  #30  
Old 08-02-2007, 06:47 PM
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That's fantastic Chris. I can't personally think of a better project to embark on. It's great to see when people build there own stuff. The way Mark described his Bino experiences really captures the imagination, don't you think? Sort of sends you floating off into space somewhere.....

One of these days I would love to look through some, but no one around these parts I know has anything like that.

I had intended to build a bigger scope somewhere around 20", but now you guys have me thinking!

Good luck with the project.

Clear skies!
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  #31  
Old 08-02-2007, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Darkplague View Post
Looking at that last picture, its looks to be quite a pain to move those rings with all those bolts holding them but I am only guessing.

The only drawback that I can see is that if you have to refocus anything, this will also affect your pupil distances, therefore requiring you to move those top rings, possilbly putting it slightly out of collimation each time
Hi Mark...Oh yea of little faith !!!!!

The top ends need only rotate a few mm or so between different observers. The thin ply lining of the cages extend down into the support plate that the cages mount on. The cutouts are lined with ebony star formica, with a rub of dry silicon grease. With your hands on either edge of the slewing bar, you can reach up with fingertips to the two cage handles and adjust the IPD spacing..it is smooth as a babies ***.

Yes the focus can upset the inter-ocular spacing slightly , so here is the drill.

Focus each eye coarsly.
Set your IPD distance by rotating the cages.
Fine/final focus each eye , which usually only means a tweak of a few 1/10s of a mm , which doesn't noticeably effect the IPD spacing
Enjoy the view

This is a routine that becomes completely automatic .
If a slight tweak is needed to the merging of images there are two big knobs under the eyepieces to do that..one becomes accustomed to doing that if needed without even being aware.

The new observer quickly learns ( driven by completely selfish motives ! ) to tweak the view to perfection. We found at Lostock that 4 people is about a good number to get through objects in a reasonable time , taking into account the slightly longer time for people to make their own adjustments. One thing still needed is an auto- electric shock on the eyepieces that can be set to so many minutes. I hardly remeber anyone willingly giving up the view to the next observer without a prompt
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  #32  
Old 08-02-2007, 08:32 PM
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Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
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One thing still needed is an auto- electric shock on the eyepieces that can be set to so many minutes. I hardly remeber anyone willingly giving up the view to the next observer without a prompt
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  #33  
Old 09-02-2007, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark Suchting View Post
One thing still needed is an auto- electric shock on the eyepieces that can be set to so many minutes.
I read somewhere this can enhance your vision and permanently double your IQ...a bit like the Krell brain boost!

CS
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  #34  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:13 PM
Digby
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Smile 12'' Binoscope

Hello Chris,
Iam the owner of the 12'' binoscope you spent the weekend looking thru.
Iam glad to hear you intend to build your own. It sounds as if your on the
right track, in your research on the binoscope. There would be no better
person in australia I feel, than Mark to get you over the finish line.
I wish you all the best, and will be watching with interest.

Regards,
Paul
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  #35  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:23 PM
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Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
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Paul - so you're the culprit!

Thanks so much for having Mark bring it to Lostock. I can only hope that whatever I build can be as nearly as effective as what you've put together. I can't wait to start specifying the parts, and having the base and mirror cell angling mechatronics on the drawing board. I'm so glad to have Mark and yourself to ask all the right questions of (as long as you don't mind, that is!). Are you coming to SPSP?

I'll keep in touch. If you're up to it, we'll get you out to nice and dark skies down at our club (Macarthur Astro Society) observing site at Belanglo State Forest or out at The Oaks one night soon. I 'd love to share the experience with fellow club members.

Cheers
Chris

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digby View Post
Hello Chris,
Iam the owner of the 12'' binoscope you spent the weekend looking thru.
Iam glad to hear you intend to build your own. It sounds as if your on the
right track, in your research on the binoscope. There would be no better
person in australia I feel, than Mark to get you over the finish line.
I wish you all the best, and will be watching with interest.

Regards,
Paul
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  #36  
Old 12-02-2007, 10:53 PM
Digby
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Hi Chris,
Iam thinking about the SPSP.My partner is a cooma girl, so who knows, a vist down your way may one day be on the cards?
Regards,
Paul
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  #37  
Old 12-02-2007, 11:01 PM
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Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
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Originally Posted by Digby View Post
Hi Chris,
Iam thinking about the SPSP.My partner is a cooma girl, so who knows, a vist down your way may one day be on the cards?
Regards,
Paul
A Cooma girl? Bring her back down any time....

We live in southern Sydney, but go down to our place down there every couple of weeks. It's a great place to view the skies from, as you'd know.

If you manage to come to SPSP I'd really enjoy meeting you and having a really good yak about some of the design aspects of your scope over a couple of good reds....

Cheers
Chris
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  #38  
Old 13-02-2007, 09:24 AM
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Smile

Hi Chris,
A good incentive to attend the SPSP.

Regards,
Paul
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