What a Ripoff Nexstar 8SE for $3499

[Gas Giant (Andrew)]

Good discussion regarding buying from local dealers or importing direct from overseas. I know a bloke who had heaps of trouble many years ago getting service on an early Meade LX200, who had bought it directly from the US.
At least today, we are certainly getting things cheaper than we used to. Ten years ago, after much research, I bought a 10" Orion Premium Deep Space Explorer with a 2" Crayford focusser for $2200. It's been a great 'scope but at the time it came with no finder (although the dealer threw one in as the order took 4 months to arrive after an initial quote of 2 weeks) and one eyepiece.
Today, thanks to the Chinese and one dealer who had a big hand in starting the trend, you can get a big aperture Dob with eyepieces and a finder for much less tha $100.
The more upmarket scopes are a LOT cheaper than they used to be as well.

That's a long spiel since I mainly wanted to ask the question, "Has any attempt ever been made to manufacture amateur astronomy optics in Australia"?

[Doug]

Fahim, US prices are almost always pre GST. That would mean that a $1200 item in the Us will cost a US consumer $1320, or by equivalence $1705AUD
Add to this insurance, export duty and customs charges leaving the US, import duty, customs fees entering Australia, freight at both ends plus international freight costs, and then the local supplier will need bread and butter money, or do you think they are just there to do all the work and not get paid for it? One additional cost could be the cost of money. If an order is placed and the account is required before the product is delivered and paid for by the final purchaser, who is to pay the interest on the bank loan?
In other words, you order a Celestron Scope from Ausie scopes Co. They arrange to have it shipped just prior to the end of Celestrons monthly account period so they are billed for your scope straight away. It sits on the docks in the Us for a few days (or longer), bobs up and down on the Pacific ocean for 6 weeks, sits around here for a week or two waiting for customs clearance and the bank is charging interest on a daily basis until you finally get your scope and pay for it with a personal cheque which might take a week to clear.
And these costs are all the more relevant if you want the convenience of being able to purchase an item 'off the shelf'. In that case the vendor will have to cover bank interest until the item is sold.
Living in the best Country in the World does have its price I suppose.

[merlin8r]

Originally Posted by mill

Hi all.
Just had to respond to this.
As i see it , if the customer doesn't want warranty on certain items ,it can be sold cheaper.
With these prices it looks as if every customer prepays future warranty,freight costs and labour, even when his/her item doesn't break down.
So if every item breaks down that is sold then nothing is lost for the retailer?
If nothing breaks down then the retailer makes a nice profit on the prepaid warranty money.
Just my 2 cents.

this is quite a weak argument, and I think it should be pretty obvious why. A warranty is a requirement of Australian consumer law, and it is there to protect us. Have you ever tried to buy anything, from a toaster to a Toyota, and gotten a discount for NOT getting a warranty?
The insinuation here seems to be that retailers are milking customers for all they are worth, and it's simply not the case. As I said before, you would be quite surprised at how low the profit margins actually are.
You are of course free to travel overseas and buy direct yourself. As has been covered in previous posts, there is little if any benefit. It is easy to dismiss little things like excess baggage (just how big do you think an 8" scope box is?), customs duties, GST et al.

Clear skies,
Shane

[Gama]

Was reading someones reasoning about spare parts and warranty.
Give me a break, what parts ?, they are ordered as needed. Whats needed ?, well, a simple circuit board or two that will cost a whopping 40 dollars to send over. What other WARRANTY parts, well the motors and maybe the worm wheel, again a whopping $80.00 shipping. So please lets leave warranty as a time factor, and not costs for the additional hike in price. You break a mirror or corrector etc, well then it aint warranty, and still you wouldnt send it over seas, as it can be changed here. The training is provided by Meade and Celestron to do these jobs. Plus you can do most if not all yourself. I did when i had to fix the R.A issue with the RCX. Took me a few hours, but i fixed it. The RCX, which is Meades complex telescope currently, only has 2 main circuit boards and can be replaced easily. So i dont buy this warranty issue where they are sent back. Hog wash, its done in house, or the component that is faulty is either sent over or ordered.
For resellers profit, it has to be seen, taking it on face value is hard. I myself sell equipment and now CCD cameras. My profit margin is directly from the manufacturer, and not added on as a mark up. You could buy the same CCD camera from the manufacturer and delivered will cost about the same, but you would not have warranty. Buying it from me would cost the same, and include a Tax receipt and warranty. I also honour the warranty by repairing it here, or sending it back with a few other bits to keep costs down if it cant be done.

[merlin8r]

It's very easy to criticize from one side of the counter. We have boxes of motors, PCB's etc in the workshop. Really doesn't matter if you think it's hogwash.

Clear skies,
Shane

[Gama]

Well, thats my whole point. These are the main parts that will fail first. You wouldnt need to ship the whole scope back. So return shipping costs are out the window, as in house repairs are done and the scope returned to the owner. The only time you would send a scope back is for the RCX for aligning the main mirror to the secondary, at least as im told.
My hogwash is for people saying that the extra costs are there incase the scope needs to be sent back for repairs. This is hogwash, as like i said and yourself, the parts are only needed, and it doesnt cost much to bring over. In your case, even in bulk, so a further saving is made.
At least you are doing the right thing by supporting local repairs.

[merlin8r]

Ok fair enough, I take your point. I'm sure you can imagine though, that due to the extremely low sales of the RCX, there isn't much point in keeping spares for them. The ETX range on the other hand, is easily the best selling goto scope on the market, and as such, has overwhelming parts support.
Also remember, that quoted US prices do not include any sales taxes, as every state has their own tax law. So the 8" LX90 from Opt corp for $1999, plus local sales taxes, GST when you get it here, freight costs, customs clearance etc etc, suddenly doesn't look so bad in Aus for under $3500.

Clear skies,
Shane

[cristian abarca]

Why don't you try Canada. I was looking into buying a DSI about a year or so ago and US shops wouldn't sell to me but the Canadian stores would and their prices were identical to the US ones.

Regards cristian

[netwolf]

Hmm about this Tax, if you look at european sites they quote a value with TAX and a lower value for overseas purchasers. Would local stat sales tax be applied to a sale to an overseas customer? I don't believe its applicable.
I think shops could offer volume purchases, to save on shipping costs. That is they give you an option to wait for others to also make a similar purchase so that you can all save on shipping. As I understand it container costs less if you ship more. I looked into this while overseas in India, and everyone told me that for small weights it cost more to surface ship, as they have to fill the rest of the container. Where as for larger weights its cheaper.

Regards

[netwolf]

One more thing does/will the Free Trade Agreement (not sure if thats kicked in yet or not) impact these import export duties.

[casstony]

If you buy something from the U.S. and have it shipped here there are no taxes applied as it leaves the U.S. Similarly, if you are in America and purchase something from outside the state you are in, sales tax is not applied.

The only reason I can see for high prices here is to support the luxury lifestyles of the astro-shop staff. You know, those 6 figure salaries, car parks full of BMWs, cushy jobs dealing with the public.

[matt]

[iceman (Mike)]

Local shops have to pay rent, pay staff, earn a living, support amateur astronomers thru astro clubs, star parties, etc.. i'm not surprised that local prices are more than simply the conversion rate + tax + shipping.

Of course some local shops are more expensive than others, no doubt some charge the RRP and make their money on the margin, and some discount and make their money on the qty sold. Just shop around.

[Gama]

We are chasing our own tail here. There is no solution on the horizon, we can say, we need to support our local suppliers, but not if its overboard.
A "normal" proffit margin is around 20 to 30%, this should include the manufacturers offset (retail price and seller price). Anything more is just plain greedy.
On the other side of the coin, there is the fact that it is a small market, and how many telescopes will you sell in a month ?, or ccd cameras, etc. It trickles in, and times just plain dead. So there needs to be a buffer to endure this. But it needs to be a balance.
My RCX400 was a perfect example. When i purchased it, i compared it to importing it myself. The difference was $1200.00, which to me for a scope of $16000, is acceptable considering its failure rate. Lucky too because it did have a big problem that needed its focus motors replaced, and it required a tech to come down to Melbourne to fix it. I have total respect for this shop (Bintel), they covered my telescopes warranty on 4 different occasions. Including changing the UWA 26mm eyepiece.
It boils down to a gamble, as my scope is full of circuits, i didnt take the chance. But a simpler scope, with less things to go worng would sound more hopefull. One last thing, there is a U.S. shop trading on ebay, and if you contact him and request a scope, you may be suprised what he can do.
Here is a quote from his ebay site "Interested in other astronomy items then the ones you see I have listed! Feel free to email me I can usually get accessories for $10.00 to $20.00 dollars off regular dealer prices, I will make an EBay listing for you! "
heres a link to his ebay page http://myworld.ebay.ca/spacemike2004/

[paninaro]

Normally when people get in this situation they start a not-for-profit co-op. You take orders at US$ retail, import in order quantity and defray landing costs over all parties involved in the order.

GST is only payable on individual pieces of over AUS$1000 in value (ATO legislation), just make sure the import is broken up into many small pieces for tax purposes, but negotiate the freight charge on the complete shipment. This is the most cost effective means for us all to buy these items.

The co-op can buy a US mail address from US$10.00 per month, buy over the web, have the items shipped to the US Mail Address and on-forwarded to AUS. And it doesn't break Meade or Celestron's agreements with suppliers. The only extra we pay on US retail is the ship cost to AUS.

PS don't get me wrong here, some of our local suppliers are excellent and I buy off them continually today, but others that I bought off in my early days turned out to be complete rip-offs, I was paying 50-100% more than the AUS market price, I didn't know this as I was a newbie, but it leaves a very sour taste.

[netwolf]

This aim of this thread is to highlight the need for co-operation and discussion on how to resolve an age old issue of being so remote from the rest of the world.

A healthy discussion in the local community might bring about some solutions to our common issues. I think the biggest problem is Australia's remoteness to the rest of the world, this increases the shipping costs to us. However if we work creatively like perhaps buy in groups or clubs through a local shop we can ofset the cost of shipping. We can negotiate a better price if we do it in a 5's or 10's. Imagine 10 people turn up to a shop and say look we all want the same or similar scope what deal are you willing to do.

If suppliers come to the table and tell us what the hidden costs are that dont go to Australians profits then perhaps we can negate them in some way. Like purchasing in bulk. I have no problems putting money into Australian pockets but lets not pay for our remoteness to others.

You could for example put a wanted add stating wanted people who wan to purchase similar scope to this. If we get 10 we can work out a bargain with the shop. Perhaps its optimistic and idealistic but today is Australia day and perhaps we can make a difference.


Regards
Fahim

[matt]

No harm in trying, Fahim.

I don't know how you're going to get that number of people together all looking to buy the same scope, but I say good luck to you

So all I need to do now is find 9 other astronomers who want to buy an Intes Micro MN86... and I'm set

[merlin8r]

That would most definately work Fahim. The more you buy, the cheaper it gets.

Clear skies,
Shane

[AstroJunk (Jonathan)]

Meade and Celestron are actually quite rubbish at international trade, and it's that failing which keeps the prices so high. Meade is a publicly owned company so you can get their published accounts and see for yourself. I did this a few years ago and it seemed they would be better off just selling in the US!

And you know what - I think it's great!

If the Blue and Orange were actually competitive, where would that leave all the other players? We have GSO, Vixen, Pentax, SDM, Obsession, Wildcard Innovations (ArgoNavis) to name a few that supply fantastic products to us because the others leave so much room in the market to compete.

20 years ago you could only dream of owning a decent scope - now you can buy a 12" for under a grand!

So use your money elsewhere and buy something twice as good No one is forcing you to buy celestron and you won't be missing out if you dont.

[netwolf]

Matt, yes it will not be easy. But good things never are. It requires some amount of sacrifice in terms of waiting for you mates to perhaps catchup financially etc. It requires strategy and needs input from the retailers. Retailers could setup an anonymous registry for people to list what they wish to purchase and when they will be ready financially to pay for it. This could be tracked online, informing members of the strategic time to buy.

Its like what Alex was geting at except the Co-op works through and supports the local retailers and they support us. This way we keep money in Australian pockets and we keep the warranty and service local. It would be very bad for Australian Astronomy if we all started buying overseas, and putting the locals out of business. We need to be strategic in our methods and choices to advance Australia.

Alex your idea would be better for people buying from the second hand market . As you could probably find some Amatures over there who would be happy to setup a storage area for the gear. So it builds up into a container load.
Like you purchase the gear in Astromart for example and have it sent to a local address there where it is held until all of it adds up to save on shipping fees.

Regards