A speed limit too late - Page 2

sejanus (Gavin) · #21 04-01-2007, 12:55 AM

I don't think using Peter Brock as a reference really is relevant - he was driving flat out on a damp country twisty road in a 600hp+ car, which I am certainly not suggesting anyone go and do.

I do not believe head ons have anything to do with excessive speed - it's a convenient scape goat though. Going by that logic we should be limited to 10km/h.

Driver education will hopefully get you to the stage where you won't necessarily run off the road, and hopefully make you a better judge of how to handle that upcoming corner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argonavis

well it didn't help Peter Brock - the fact remains that speed kills as it amplifies the other factors - inattention, drugs, loss of control of the vehicle.

Driver education misses the simple physics of what happens when 2 bodies collide - and the momentum that a car generates even at 60kph is really really dangerous. One slip and you are gone. That is how cars run off straight roads, or have head-ons without attempting to overtake - the common factor is excessive speed and overconfidence.

glenc (Glen) · #22 04-01-2007, 05:57 AM

I am not saying that speed does not kill, it just gets blamed too often. Many you drivers do go too fast on corners. High powered rear wheel drivers have a tendency to go sideways on a wet corner if the driver accelerates, and the average "family" 6 is high powered.

We need more accurate information on crashes. I have been trying to get information on alcohol BAC levels for fatal crashes but the NSW RTA refuses to give the information. They also cannot provide info on illegal drugs and crashes. Low BAC levels are deadly when combined with some drugs.

The Pacific Highway is being used as a railroad because the railway line is not up to scratch. This makes it more dangerous even IF the truck drivers are not at fault in a crash. The mix of heavy and light vehicles is especially dangerous when the road is not divided. It is worse than poles and trees on the roadside.

At Bathurst you have speed but you also have vehicles with similar weights traveling in the same direction with expert and alert drivers. You don't have that on public roads.

Here are some crash statistics.
http://www.atsb.gov.au/road/road_fat...ics/index.aspx
http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/roadsafety...stics_dl4.html

Argonavis (William) · #23 04-01-2007, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sejanus

I don't think using Peter Brock as a reference really is relevant - he was driving flat out on a damp country twisty road in a 600hp+ car, which I am certainly not suggesting anyone go and do.

The relevance is that even with all his experience he still muffed it. Why? Because he was travelling too fast for the road conditions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sejanus

I do not believe head ons have anything to do with excessive speed - it's a convenient scape goat though. Going by that logic we should be limited to 10km/h.
.

With a man out front with a red flag - that would reduce the road toll but I doubt it will happen. People seem happy to continue to kill themselves and others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sejanus

Driver education will hopefully get you to the stage where you won't necessarily run off the road, and hopefully make you a better judge of how to handle that upcoming corner.

Experience, defensive techniques and avoiding overconfidence will all assist in handling that upcoming corner. Speed won't. People who think that they can travel at 100kph+ safely are delusional.

xelasnave · #24 04-01-2007, 07:59 AM

The stats for road accidents are gathered in a manner that leaves room for wondering if the true picture is told in respect to speed. Often the speed recorded is an "estimate" given or made by the police.
Our acceptance of production cars, nay demand for, production cars that are capable of speeds in excess of 180kms per hour is catered for by manufactures seeking to outdo the other..
I do a lot of driving from here to home on the nice straight roads, many times cars start passing and I look down thinking I must be going slow only to find I have drifted to 120 klms per hour, yet I am being passed. I drove down in a small 4 cylinder, a car that I expect would be one of the slowest on the road however I recon it could reach 160 without much effort... I ask why the preoccupation with having vehicles come out each year faster than the year before. How much was spent developing the latest Holden er Commodore.. a billion I hear... why? to match the expectations of a public thinking they are potential V8 super car drivers. The constant exposure to car racing must influence young minds (even old minds) that they too can "race".. certainly on the freeway everyone is into it..or so it seems to me.
So we have a rather silly if not hypocritical situation as far as speed potential of vehicles supposedly made to live in a 110 klm limit world. Not everyone will put the foot down but the percentage who do put the rest of us at risk. I can only talk about accidents in my area and when I think about it all fatalities have involved excessive speed for the conditions and booze.
Sit outside any pub at closing and count the numbers who catch the bus home.. how many pubs turn out each closing folk who should not drive.. it is a cultural problem for those invloved simply dont get it.
So what can be done? AIr bags thats a great idea as with them we can demand a yet faster Commodore next year that we can drive faster with little risk???? If you drive a big fast car ask yourself why..what marketing have you fallen victim to.. who are you trying to impress? or do you really need all that power to tow a caravan or boat..thats the usual reply but in most cases a lie to the person delivering that line.. people fool themselves that they need a fast powerful car.. oh another excuse... I need more power to get me out of a dangerous situation... mmm really listern to what you are saying to yourself.. not really smart and potentially lethal approach to car selection.
alex

glenc (Glen) · #25 04-01-2007, 08:17 AM

On the one hand you can say:
Peter Brock was suffering from jet lag and was not familiar with the car he was driving.
Cars on the German autobahns often travel at 200kph, and the road toll in Germany is similar to here.

Speed is one of the causes of crashes: alcohol, drugs, fatigue, inexperience, poorly designed roads, and too much power are some others.

On the other hand you can say:
The fatal crash rate in the NT is 22.0 deaths per 100,000 population, in Vic it is 6.9/100,000. Is that all due to speed?

hogly52 (Graeme) · #26 04-01-2007, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argonavis

well it didn't help Peter Brock - the fact remains that speed kills as it amplifies the other factors - inattention, drugs, loss of control of the vehicle.

Driver education misses the simple physics of what happens when 2 bodies collide - and the momentum that a car generates even at 60kph is really really dangerous. One slip and you are gone. That is how cars run off straight roads, or have head-ons without attempting to overtake - the common factor is excessive speed and overconfidence.

Let's not underestimate the potential of driver education. The direction I want driver education to take, apart from learning and practising safe driving skills, is to change the attitudes that cause, or allow:

a. a driver to want to drive at a car's full potential,
b. a driver to treat the road as a race track,
c. a driver to disregard the road and weather conditions,
d. a driver to think they can control a vehicle while under the influence of any drug or alcohol,
e. a driver to take unacceptable risks at any time, etc ... the list goes on forever.

Speed on its own doesn't kill! Police, ambos, firies use it every day without killing themselves. Governments love speedsters, it brings them lots of revenue. However, speed combined with a bullet proof attitude is a deadly cocktail that has no place on a public road. Educate the root causes out, and we'll have drivers who have true regard for the road, and all those who interact with the road: other drivers, vehicles and pedestrians. As a consequence we'll have slower traffic flows, because drivers want to be safer and respectful of others. Education and legislation need to work hand in hand to achieve the desired result, legislation alone will not do it.

Graeme

ving (David) · #27 04-01-2007, 09:21 AM

on driver education:

There is nothig wrong with driver education, but like any education its effectiveness comes down to the person being educated. example (taking drugs/alcohol out of the equation):

a "normal" non educated driver may loose controll in conditions less than perfect.
a "hoon" non educated driver may loose control in normal conditions due to lack of experience, pushing the car too hard or less than perfect conditions.

now educate both of them:
the now educated "non-hoon" will handle thier car better under less than perfect conditions and with more confidence in thier ability.
WHERE AS
the now educated "hoon" with extra car handling experience will feel like they can go faster... need i say more? the hoon will always be pushing the limit of thier own and thier cars abilities regardless of training. you train them then they need to faster to get the same rush.

maybe they should only educated "normal drivers"?

just an idea...

jjjnettie (Jeanette) · #28 04-01-2007, 10:18 AM

Just a dream of mine, but what if all drivers caught for speeding or dangerous driving, more then once, were then restricted to 3 cylinder metalic purple Suzuki hatchbacks.

ving (David) · #29 04-01-2007, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

Just a dream of mine, but what if all drivers caught for speeding or dangerous driving, more then once, were then restricted to 3 cylinder metalic purple Suzuki hatchbacks.

onya jeanette! i love that idea!

sejanus (Gavin) · #30 04-01-2007, 10:27 AM

No it is not relevant - the guy was driving flat out on a twisty damp country road - I don't think you realise how fast you can get up to in a tarmac rally in a fast car - I went in one once and it's not uncommon to arrive at a corner braking down from 210-220, and I was only in a jap turbo car with around 380hp.

I am not suggesting that country twisty roads have speed limits increased, or any other similar areas such as suburbia. I do believe that good quality freeways should have their limits increased over 110.

Quite frankly if you do not have the ability to drive safely over 100 km/h on a freeway then you should not be on the road full stop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Argonavis

The relevance is that even with all his experience he still muffed it. Why? Because he was travelling too fast for the road conditions.

With a man out front with a red flag - that would reduce the road toll but I doubt it will happen. People seem happy to continue to kill themselves and others.

Experience, defensive techniques and avoiding overconfidence will all assist in handling that upcoming corner. Speed won't. People who think that they can travel at 100kph+ safely are delusional.

jjjnettie (Jeanette) · #31 04-01-2007, 10:36 AM

Yeah, that would clip a few wings wouldn't it. It would make city driving a lot safer.

ving (David) · #32 04-01-2007, 10:38 AM

including learners...

Starkler (Geoff) · #33 04-01-2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sejanus

I am not suggesting that country twisty roads have speed limits increased, or any other similar areas such as suburbia. I do believe that good quality freeways should have their limits increased over 110

Indeed I agree that 110 is too slow on our multi laned freeways in rural areas. Ones like the Hume in Vic could easily support 130kmh.

Our original 100kmh limits were formulated in the days of floaty poor suspension and drum brakes and vehicle dynamics have improved a hell of a lot since then.