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  #21  
Old 28-11-2016, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bojan View Post
And you know that for sure, do you?
And you know for sure that it isn't, do you?
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  #22  
Old 28-11-2016, 12:25 PM
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And you know for sure that it isn't, do you?
It seems yours and my knowledge about the issue is about the same, mate...
So let's stop right here.
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  #23  
Old 28-11-2016, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by AussieTrooper View Post
Have you?

The trendy logic tends to go along these lines.
- Castro didn't like the USA.
- I don't like the USA.
- Castro must be good.

If it was the same guy doing the same things in Africa, he'd be just another third world dictator and nobody would give a crap, let alone make a hero out of him. But he 'stood up to the US', so he must be someone to be in awe of right?
Hi Ben
I found a Cuban archive which I cant download for whatever reason.

The number is about 10,000 which includes much more than firing squad, even deaths from hunger strikes and missing persons.

What I found surprising was that the reign of terror saw relatively few deaths, well to my expectations at least.

I am sorry I cant post the numbers.. the distribution over time I found interesting and curious. I have not worked out per capita numbers or averages or compared the numbers with other revolutions or say the deaths from drug wars.

It seems he is being genuinely mourned in Cuba maybe he is a "you love him or hate him sortta guy" and no doubt if one of your relatives were on the wrong end of a firing squad you may be tempted to celebrate his passing.


I like the USA and so my comment is not motivated in the way you suggest but I think that there would few who have "stood up to USA" that did so with the sucess of Castro and I think that is a fact rather than a bias.

I cant wait for the movie.


Alex


Alex
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  #24  
Old 28-11-2016, 01:24 PM
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Not bad for a murderous dictator to have reduced the infant mortality rate to below the United States level and increased the school participation rates in years 6-12 from 53% during Batista's dictatorship to nearly 100% by 1986.
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  #25  
Old 28-11-2016, 01:42 PM
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There are a few more thought's I'm inclined to share about Castro...

On a personal level, I have no experience of Cuba or Castro other than through the prism of other people's perspectives. One of my very good friends is a dive master who spent some time living in Cuba (as a resident, NOT as a tourist)


Her memories of life in Cuba was that it was little different to what we take for granted here in the West, other than that, things were much cheaper... health care and education were free and people were generally happier and less preoccupied with materialism. The notion of an overbearing police state was nowhere in evidence.

There is of course another side to Castro, and arguably the one point most significant (and ironically, least discussed) is that he was a Jesuit agent.... as was Lenin, Trotsky, Mao Tse Tung and Stalin... (the latter being one of the most evil, manipulative and depraved Satanists ever to walk the planet) -- make of that what you will.

And on the flip side of the dialectic, let us not forget that much of the demonisation of Castro was manufactured 'pretext' .. For historical context, it might be worth a dive down the google rabbit hole and search out what was proposed in operation Northwoods, operation Mongoose, Cointelpro, Gladio et al)

Many individual plans were devised by the CIA to assassinate Castro. Plans to discredit Castro in the eyes of the Cuban public included contaminating his clothing with thallium salts that would make his trademark beard fall out, spraying a broadcasting studio with hallucinogens before a televised speech and if I recall correctly, a contingency plan to blame Castro for the failure of the Mercury ii flight (or re-entry) in the advent of a failure. Assassination plots included poisoning a box of Castro's favorite cigars with botulinus toxin and placing explosive seashells in his favorite diving spot... Northwoods included plans to conduct terrorist attacks on American soil (and allies) .... sinking American ships, bombs in public places (Florida), flying planes in to buildings and blaming it on Cuba (sound familiar?) in order to manufacture consent for an otherwise unnecessary and deeply unpopular war.. Kennedy said no, and of course this didn't go down too well with the CIA, DoD, Joint chief's of Staff, FBI and the Mafia (who had significant financial interests in Cuba)

As others have pointed out... just because Castro was targeted by some seriously unsavoury (mid level) characters, don't presume that he was a nice guy.

It aint black and white.

Last edited by clive milne; 28-11-2016 at 01:55 PM.
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  #26  
Old 28-11-2016, 01:50 PM
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Hi Clive
I think it was on the news so this is heresay but I think the reader said he had 600 CIA sponsored assasination attempts.
Could they be that inefficient? Or was that just something to write on a cheque butt?
You know you are an agent and you blow some cash so write off as a funding an assination attempt.. Would the book keeper ask further questions?
Alex
Alex... I don't know about 600, and I struggle to believe that if the power brokers (at the top of the food chain) truly wanted him dead, that he could survive to the ripe old age of 90.

I'm dead certain (given his Jesuit connection) that he was little more than a convenient controlled opposition figure head.
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  #27  
Old 28-11-2016, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by AussieTrooper View Post
Have you?

The trendy logic tends to go along these lines.
- Castro didn't like the USA.
- I don't like the USA.
- Castro must be good.

If it was the same guy doing the same things in Africa, he'd be just another third world dictator and nobody would give a crap, let alone make a hero out of him. But he 'stood up to the US', so he must be someone to be in awe of right?
That's right, set up a straw man, they're easy to knock down.

"Trendy logic" There is nothing trendy about my views. I've held basically the same position since I started to look critically at the world around me in the late 70's.

"Castro didn't like the USA" Actually in 1959 he had no gripe with the USA. It wasn't until 1961 that he started to have issues. It's funny how an attempted invasion can sway a person.

"I don't like the USA' No. It's capitalism that I 'don't like'; more correctly I think capitalism has outlived its usefulness. BTW Initially Castro and the Cuban revolutionaries just wanted to rid Cuba of the dictatorship and improve the life of common Cubans. It was bitter experience that convinced them that this couldn't be achieved under capitalism.

"Castro must be good" I'll accept 'good' but not faultless. Cuba and Castro have changed their mind on various issues over the years. So Castro has admitted to making mistakes, hardly par for the course amongst dictators.

"just another third world dictator" Really?? Can you name another 'third world dictator' who has developed a world-class health and education system? How many dictators have attempted to diversify and balance the country's economy so that they aren't at the whim of the sugar price? How many third world dictators actually stand up to their colonial masters?

"in awe of" Come on. I'm not even in awe of Marx, Engels, Lenin or Trotsky, much less Mao, Ho Chi Min or Castro. They were all humans with faults and failings who made mistakes (some more than others). "Awe' is for dieties and I don't believe in them.
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  #28  
Old 28-11-2016, 01:52 PM
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Clive could you script the movie please.
Alex
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  #29  
Old 28-11-2016, 01:56 PM
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David could you please assist Clive with the movie.
Alex
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  #30  
Old 28-11-2016, 02:10 PM
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David could you please assist Clive with the movie.
Alex
Nah.
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  #31  
Old 28-11-2016, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
Clive could you script the movie please.
Alex
Alex... in the present moment, I am far too attached to maintaining my ability to breathe oxygen to seriously contemplate going down that path...

Ask Gary Webb about how this works out. One of the more impressive suicides by an investigative journalists... no less than two gun shots to the head.

FBI: "nothing to see here folks, move along"
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  #32  
Old 28-11-2016, 02:18 PM
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There is of course another side to Castro, and arguably the one point most significant (and ironically, least discussed) is that he was a Jesuit agent.... as was Lenin, Trotsky, Mao Tse Tung and Stalin... (the latter being one of the most evil, manipulative and depraved Satanists ever to walk the planet) -- make of that what you will.
Jesuit agents???
Now that would make an interesting script......
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  #33  
Old 28-11-2016, 02:46 PM
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He was a great man.
RIP Fidel
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  #34  
Old 28-11-2016, 03:17 PM
gary
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Those aspects of post-1959 Cuban history that are cruel,
brutal and oppressive unfortunately follow a 524-year trend
of Cuban history.

Columbus came there in 1492 (his remains were in Havana for
a hundred years) and the Spanish followed up by sweeping
over the island massacring the indians.

Slaves from surrounding islands and later Africa were
brought in to work on tobacco, coffee and sugar
plantations.

After the Seven Years War when the British arrived in Havana
in 1762, they expanded the slavery system even more.

Spain regained Cuba the following year in 1763 when they
swapped with the British for Florida.

The sugar trade was incredibly profitable (sugar still is a
major part of the economy and vast regions of Cuba today are
still covered in sugar cane) and the slave trade under the
Spanish flourished until it ceased in 1886. Around a million
slaves had been brought in from Africa alone.

Suffice to say conditions were harsh and brutal.

The Cuban revolutionary independence movement can trace its
roots back to the early 1800's but it literally sets sail in
1894 when three ships set sail from Florida for Cuba loaded
with arms, men and supplies under the direction of Jose
Marti who later would become regarded as the county's
founding father.

The U.S. however, influenced by the Monroe Doctrine of 1823,
had other plans. The Monroe Doctrine had basically announced
to the world that Europe should keep its paws off the
Americas. Not specifically written into the Doctrine was of
course the fact that the United States wanted to the
dominant economic force in the region.

Many in the U.S. pushed for Cuba to be annexed.
When the U.S. naval ship U.S.S Maine mysteriously blew-up in
Havana Harbor in 1898, it was just the excuse the U.S. was
looking for to enter the fray with the Spanish.

Popular support for the Spanish-American War was largely
encouraged by a circulation war between two rival newspaper
owners, Joseph Pulitzer and William Randolph Hearst. (This
was later fictionalized in the movie Citizen Kane where Kane
telegrams his correspondent not to worry, that he will
supply the war).

When the U.S. and Spain sign a peace treaty in 1898. Cuba is
temporarily handed over to the United States.

U.S. business interests there quickly dominated with land
concessions and permits quickly issued by the U.S. appointed
governor.

In 1901, an election is held but the only candidate is a
U.S. nominated one.

In 1906, the U.S. invaded a second time and U.S. military,
political and economic interests continued to dominate.

When Baptista was only third in the running for the
presidential elections of 1952, he was given U.S.-backing to
overtake the country in a military coup.

Baptista formed close ties with the Mafia (depicted in one
famous scene in the Godfather trilogy where he shows off his
gold telephone given to him by ITT). Gambling, drugs,
prostitution and corruption flourished. Opponents, either
political or commercial, were either imprisoned, shot by
firing squad or assassinated. Some estimates are about
20,000 murdered.

Baptista fled on New Year's eve 1958 with USD300 million in
cash.

John F. Kennedy described the Baptista regime as "one of the
most bloody and repressive dictatorships in the long history
of Latin American repression".

Fidel Castro and the revolution, having fought a guerrilla
war for several years, simply rolled into Havana.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John F. Kennedy
I believe that there is no country in the world including any
and all the countries under colonial domination, where economic
colonization, humiliation and exploitation were worse than in
Cuba, in part owing to my country's policies during the Batista
regime. I approved the proclamation which Fidel Castro made
in the Sierra Maestra, when he justifiably called for justice
and especially yearned to rid Cuba of corruption. I will even
go further: to some extent it is as though Batista was the
incarnation of a number of sins on the part of the United
States. Now we shall have to pay for those sins.
In the matter of the Batista regime, I am in agreement with
the first Cuban revolutionaries. That is perfectly clear.
Along with Bapista fled the mafia, many of his junta and those
with businesses interests that were now under threat.

Land reform followed but the imprisonments and firing squads
continued for those who were deemed counter-revolutionaries.

Over the decades there were several waves of exoduses.

The first wave were predominantly linked with organized crime and the
Baptista regime. Soon to follow were those who would lose business
interests owing to exclusive permits ceasing to exist and to nationalization and land reform.

Political opponents and those deemed to be counter-revolutionaries
(many at times who had been imprisoned and tortured) were given
a couple of opportunities to officially "escape".

Criminals were also provided with amnesty to leave.

When the Soviet Union collapsed, so with it did Cuba's economy.
It had depended on the Soviets buying sugar at a highly subsidized rate
in exchange for oil.

That and the crippling U.S. trade embargo resulted in many fleeing as economic migrants.

As for Cuba today, one gets the sense that the Revolution has run
its course. As you drive in the countryside, the billboards with revolutionary
slogans are faded and crumbling.

Whereas in Government buildings in the United States it is common to
see a framed portrait of the current president, Fidel and Raul's face
are mostly absent. Che's pop-art image still dominates the T-shirt
sales.

The dominant discussion there is the hope of the U.S. embargo being lifted.

By definition, most Cubans are now younger than the 1959 Revolution
and though its propaganda is promoted in schools and on television,
it seems to have less relevance to younger Cubans there today.

I sensed that things would most likely change for the better if the embargo
were lifted. Though there is no guarantee that Cuba's ruling regime would
change, the Cuban people definitely need to maintain their independence
free of foreign meddling and control.

Footnote.

I travelled independently through Cuba last year. When I compared and
contrasted the areas of rural Texas and Oklahoma I had been in the
week before going there, I couldn't help but think most Cubans seemed
brighter, happier and healthier.

Literacy is high and health care is free.

Despite the privations, I sense a certain amount of their happiness
comes with a lust for life that seems to come naturally to the Cuban people.

For those interested, some snapshots I took were posted in IceInSpace last year in this thread -
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...d.php?t=138782

Last edited by gary; 28-11-2016 at 07:06 PM. Reason: added the word embargo
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  #35  
Old 28-11-2016, 04:34 PM
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Thank you Gary for taking the time to present your most informative and interesting post.

As the years go by I look back at the propaganda we have been fed.
When a kid I thought those poor folk in the USSR how their masters fed them lies and they believed all of it.
But now when I look back I can see how we too were manipulated.
It still goes on of that I am sure.
Remember the weapons of mass destruction lies.
And in retrospect old Saddam would have had to be rather busy to bring more horror than has been visited upon all people in the region.

Overall I think we are so lucky to be so far away from all of it.

Its seems that Castro's rule saw less deaths than most other periods.
I think the population was around 6 million and now around 11 million.
So even at 10,000 deaths over 60 years was not too bad and probably off set by the improvement in health, in direct off set, and certainly to give free education and health is an achievent that can only be envied by USA.
Your observations on the mood of the people I found very interesting.
Thanks again.
Alex
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  #36  
Old 28-11-2016, 04:48 PM
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Gary, ya gotta stop reading the obituaries.......
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  #37  
Old 28-11-2016, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
Thank you Gary for taking the time to present your most informative and interesting post.
Thank you Alex,

In preparing for the trip last year, I steeped myself a little in
Cuban history and of course when you are on the ground the
geography falls into place.

For example, before setting off I had examined some of the U2
photographs taken during the Cuban Missile Crisis and found their
corresponding locations on Google Earth.

They were mainly in the west of the country and when you are driving
through those same rural areas now, except for the missiles now long gone,
I suspect they look much the same as they did then.

Only a couple of weeks before that I had been standing on the Grassy Knoll
in Dealey Plaza, Dallas and pondering the historical events that took place
there in terms of the physical dimensions of the place. So I found it to
be an interesting arc with respect the JFK connection to then be in
the localities of the nuclear missile launchers in the west of Cuba.

And just prior to that I had been swimming in the beautiful waters of the
Bay of Pigs looking at the coral formations that CIA reconnaissance mistook
for "just seaweed" and which fouled the landing craft in that ill-fated
invasion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
Overall I think we are so lucky to be so far away from all of it.
Absolutely!

We are lucky that Australian history, by comparison, is so relatively
uneventful.

Curiously, there is a little town in Cuba we visited called "Australia".
You drive through it on the way to the Bay of Pigs. There once
was a sugar mill there but like most sugar mills in the country, this one
was in ruin.

I stepped inside a locomotive shed and some guys were trying to restore a
steam locomotive named "Australia".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
Your observations on the mood of the people I found very interesting.
Thanks again.
Alex
They certainly know a thing or two about enjoying themselves.

Music and dance is deeply embedded in the culture.

There is no advertising and no fast food chains so it is a throw-back to
some earlier time. Everything is a real antique.
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  #38  
Old 28-11-2016, 06:30 PM
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Garry you said...Everything is a real antique.
I think I may well fit in there.
You got me thinking of when I was a kid growing up in a country town in NSW.
Much simpler times.
The pictures (movies) were on Wednesday night and Saturday afternoon and night. Same movies.
Same format. News reel, a serial, and two movies.
I often think about the luxury I now enjoy by having various movies to choose from and in a week can watch more movies than I would see in a year.
Of course there was the radio 5 pm each day for an hour, for kids stuff. And Saturday night an hour and s half of serials...
Take away food...fish and chips or a meat pie.
And back then there were only potatoe chips so when twisties appeared we knew the future had arrived.
Using the telephone was a big deal.
Looking back I think I was happy..we made everything back then...model planes, tin canoes, biked everywhere, ....
And we fought.. Every day after school until dark or till the radio show sometimes.
I went to police boys learning judo and jujitsu, and after would have four to six fights each week every week with two kids from the convent who abused me every day fr their bus on the esy to school.
They would take turns but neither ever won but I became a decent fighter because each week I had to use different submissions cause they would work out each week how I beat them.
I can only recall one suicide...
Alex
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  #39  
Old 28-11-2016, 06:59 PM
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And milk was delivered by horse and cart you left out a billy can with the money and the milkman poured milk in the billy.
Bread came via a horse and cart and was always still warm and not sliced.
Vegies were sold from the back of a truck.
No such thing as self service store.
When one opened we thought they would be robbed blind the concept was just so out there we could not grasp it.
Stores did not open Sunday.
And no TV.
Alex
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  #40  
Old 28-11-2016, 07:30 PM
gary
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And milk was delivered by horse and cart you left out a billy can with the money and the milkman poured milk in the billy.
Bread came via a horse and cart and was always still warm and not sliced.
Alex,

You may well enjoy the pace of life there.

Even in cities such as Cienfuegos, a city of some 150,000, the predominant
form of public transport is still horse and carts.

I've never seen so many horses.

In country towns like Vinales in the west - where they grow the
cigar tobacco - everyone has a front verandah with rocking chairs.
Folk sit on their porch in the evenings, rock in their chairs, talk and
watch the world go by.

Now and then a real cowboy goes riding by and tips his hat.
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