Narrowed down - choice between 2 mounts

[g__day (Matthew)]

Ken,

You can remotely control the CG5 using the freeware Nexstar via a (4 wire) cable from the handcontroller to the serial in port of a PC / laptop - no length restrictions. I made my own cable DB9 connector one end LAN connector into a LAN / Serial interface plug - materials cost 10 dollars or less. I needed a $10 multimetre and $45 crimping tool to make all my special cabling connections.

http://www.nexstarsite.com/NSOL.htm

So Goto from a remote PC with the CG5 is pretty simple once you have the cable and free software. How to wire the cable here http://www.nexstarsite.com/PCControl/RS232Cable.htm

Ideally its great if you can setup the scope - and not touch it to avoid vibration for astrophotography. So one other think you might later look at is motorised and/or computer controlled focusing, I am a few weeks away from doing remote PC controller focusing - so skip that one for the moment.

e.g. http://www.store.shoestringastronomy...roducts_fc.htm into a Meade motor focus unit

For auto-guiding you need something to mimic a S-BIG autoguide controller - unless you are fortunate to have an S-BIG unit. However these can be emulated by a PC running the right software as it processes the video in from a ccd. I happen to have bought an Meade DSI which comes with some great planetarium, imaging, focusing, dome control and auto-guding software - for Meade specific electronics. However there are great emulators out there to convert Meade proprietary commands to Celestron commands for alot of your mount control. e.g. Guidestar

http://www.skyinsight.net/wiki/index...tware_Emulator

If I where in your shoes I would research what software you need to control your mount and achieve astrophotography to make a better decision. There is a whole slew of learning and products to process an image once its been captured.

70% of the human brain is devoted to real time visual processing, and its evloved for hundreds of thousands of years. So don't think a simple CCD and some software available to day will do this all for you out of the box. CCDs capture alot of signal, but they don't necessarily present the signal you need to highlight well. They can flood you with the most obivious light data and you may have to tease out the critically important subtle stuff with specific software.

Don't let this put you off, simply continue to ask good questions and read alot is my advice.

If I had to surammise your two stated choices the CG5 is capable but you need to support it with the right software and cabling. The LXD75 is likely to be mechanically inferior but Meade bundle great, integrated software at least with their CCDs to drive their mounts far more benefically then Celestron do.

Celestron - better hardware on the Mount, possible to acquire 3rd party software to do all a Meade s/w package can can. Meade - lesser mount, better, more integrated software in my very limited experience.

What have others found?

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

Originally Posted by g__day

Ken,
You can remotely control the CG5 using the freeware Nexstar via a (4 wire) cable from the handcontroller to the serial in port of a PC / laptop - no length restrictions.So Goto from a remote PC with the CG5 is pretty simple once you have the cable and free software.

Well, that's good news.

Originally Posted by g__day

So one other think you might later look at is motorised and/or computer controlled focusing, I am a few weeks away from doing remote PC controller focusing - so skip that one for the moment.

My ED80 and dob already have the Orion Accufocus fitted.

Originally Posted by g__day

For auto-guiding you need something to mimic a S-BIG autoguide controller - unless you are fortunate to have an S-BIG unit. However these can be emulated by a PC running the right software as it processes the video in from a ccd. I happen to have bought an Meade DSI which comes with some great planetarium, imaging, focusing, dome control and auto-guding software - for Meade specific electronics. However there are great emulators out there to convert Meade proprietary commands to Celestron commands for alot of your mount control. e.g. Guidestar

You just lost me again! Damn that jargon!!!

Originally Posted by g__day

There is a whole slew of learning and products to process an image once its been captured.

Yep, familiar with all that. Been processing images captured in Toucam software and Desire long Exposure suite for about a year now using Registax, PaintShop Pro, and Photoshop CS.

Originally Posted by g__day

If I had to surammise your two stated choices the CG5 is capable but you need to support it with the right software and cabling. The LXD75 is likely to be mechanically inferior but Meade bundle great, integrated software at least with their CCDs to drive their mounts far more benefically then Celestron do.

Celestron - better hardware on the Mount, possible to acquire 3rd party software to do all a Meade s/w package can can. Meade - lesser mount, better, more integrated software in my very limited experience.

What have others found?

After reading the Celestron owners manual and many reviews they all say to just plug in the RS-232 cable and Bobs your Uncle as far as Lappy controlling the mount.

I use a very large EQ mount now for Astrophotography (as well as the piddly little EQ! ). I just want a portable goTo mount for when I am away from home! Be damned if I'm gonna dissassemble and carry my 3 tonne bohemeth every time I wanna do imaging somewhere else.

I took the beast to the local fair on saturday, and nearly blew a foofle valve!

[g__day (Matthew)]

Okay then, you seem to be right on top of most of that, lets focus on autoguiding.

If you have a image comming in and some software that can scan that image in real time then you could choose a bright star in the field of view and "lock" its position on the screen. By locking its position everything else on the screen would be locked too for a reasonably properly aligned mount!

The way this works is the software views the CCD chip like a chess board and the stars like chess pieces. You have just told it to say lock it so that the Queen (a bright star) is locked on QB-4 (Queen's Bishop - four steps forward of the base line) a known pixel on the CCDs grid.

Now a star could wander off position based on either recurring errors (bad polar alignment or imperfections in the drive gears) or intermittent errors - knocks to the mount or OTA, vibrations such as wind gusts. If the errors are regular - pointing alignment or drive imperfections - one calls them periodic. In one revolution of the mounts gears you are delta x and delta y out of position - then this can be observed and corrected. That function is called PEC - periodic error correction. But to fix either random or periodic errors you can use auto-guiding.

So from the above example for whatever reason your selected guide star moves off your selected pixel. Then the software distinguishes this and generates the movement commands to the mount that should move this star back onto this pixel with a set amount of alacrity (the aggressiveness of your corrections). These commands have to be sent from the PC - say via your serial port - as an electrical signal - a usually a 6 wire flat cable - into an auto guide port on your mount. This port can make fine tuning instructions to your mount; like move three squares up and one square left on that chess board of our example.

Now apparently there is no universal standard for auto guiders - commands, electronics and signalling. But there is a defacto one because the most popular and therefore prevalant brand and model of autoguider was the $1,500 SBIG ST-4 model (which I believe has now been retired). So many manufacturers design their mounts to be compliant with the way this specific model of auto-guider worked. e.g. http://www.astrocruise.com/st4tips.htm

Now a computer program can emulate the way a dedicated piece of technology can work. A Meade DSI or LPI CCD signal can therefore be interogated (say by AutoStar Suite) a bright star selected and locked, and the software issue commands - to a Meade mount - to keep that stars position locked.

Now again Meade and Celestron don't follow universal standards to drive their mounts (pain in the posterior this lack of standards). But again you can emulate one mounts control commands and translate commands for the Meade into commands for the Celestron. So I use Meade imaging gear and software and run it into a Meade -> Celestron command convertor and send it into a Celestron CG-5 mount.

[ving (David)]

hi ken, I have a headache now

in about a month (or when ever my bonus goes thru) i'll be up for a new mount too, but for my 8" newt. I am most likely going to get a heq5 from andrews @ $899 (plus rings of course). seems the cheapest and most stable way out for me but then my scope is heavier than an ed80... i too would love goto (which they sell for $1699) but that completely blows my budget
having stable tracking is more important to me than goto tho so thats how i made my choice. If the cg5gt ( at $1249) was just as stable i'd go that but it is not, or so i am lead to believe.

of course none of this helps you... or does it? whats important to you? maybe that will help you make your decision?

[Fox]

There may be merit in that, you will get Goto for only a small price. That mount though, I suspect might be very lightweight... Cheers, Fox.

[g__day (Matthew)]

Well on the HEQ5 that is $800 extra - at time of purchase from Andrew's - which seems very cheap. Of all his mounts the skyscan fitted goto EQ6 just under $2,000 is probably the very best budget heavy duty mount. Otherwise MyAstroShop has a EQ6 goto with SynScan V3 for $2,650

If you think lifetime value of these mounts - you're probably better saving up and buying the best you can afford - then using under calibre gear for too long.

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

Thanks guys.

Things are getting a wee bit clearer. It will be good to see these mounts in action at Camp in under 2 weeks time. By the end of Camp I reckon I should have my choice made.

That was a good explanation of how guiding works, G. Thanks for that.

[Dave47tuc (David)]

Hi Ken,
At camp I can show you how the EQ6 type mount will go with the SynScan controller hooked up to the laptop.
I have yet to try this out doors, due to the weather. But indoors all looks good.
I also have a DSI to play with at camp, just to see how all this stuff will come together.
Should be fun.

[g__day (Matthew)]

My pleasure, star parties must be the best place to learn, as nothing substitutes for experience!

[netwolf]

This maybe a cheaper option to buy the mount without the goto and add this goto update alternative http://eq6.update.rajiva.de/ based on a local Australian project http://projects.gbdt.com.au/eq6-1/

Has anyone tried this?
Edit: Found one guy on another forums that seems happy with the result.
http://forums.astronomydaily.com/viewtopic.php?t=3153

Also does anyone know if the 1299 EQ6 Mount from Andrews has the new Synscan motors?

Regards
Fahim

[Fox]

Hmmm... I'll make sure I chime into this board before I think of ditching my LXD75 and upgrading to whatever. I had suspected that the Meade, notwithstanding its mechanical deficiences and basicness, had some advantage by way of system integration (DSI and AutoStar suite and all that). Thanks for all the highly detailed expert info! Fox.

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

Originally Posted by netwolf

Also does anyone know if the 1299 EQ6 Mount from Andrews has the new Synscan motors?

Regards
Fahim

Thanks Fahim. I actually chat with Pizwiz (the guy who has this set-up) in another forum.

And as for the EQ6 at Andrews, I have been thru all his mounts with him via email. His mounts have the old Skyscan. When I asked what he meant by 'updated' he informed me that it means that Tasco in Australia updated 'Non GoTo' mounts to GoTo's here in Oz. So they are non-drive mounts been 'updated' to become GoTo's, just with old Skyscan.

[netwolf]

Ken, in the old days the upgrade to Goto for a EQ6 involved replacement of motors, and Hand controller plus some electronics.
The new synscan non-goto EQ6 being sold are supposed to come with the new motor and electronics, hence upgrade to goto means just add a hand controller. But I suppose there might still be some of the older ones around.

As I understand it the change from V2.x - V3.x is just a change in hand controllers.

In Summary,

Old EQ6 non-goto required motor, electronics and hand controller to be made goto.
New EQ6 non-goto require just the addition of the V2.x or V3.x hand controller.

Which of this is Andrew's selling for $1299?

This is what I have concluded from what I have read on other forums and user feedback. Originally in the US orion sold the EQ-G non-goto for about 799 and goto version for 1399. Then the prices chaged to approx 1000 for the non goto version. Which indicated the motors inside were the new improved ones ready for use with the goto hand controller.

Appolgies for diverting your topic Ken. But I believe the EQ6 is the best bet for you as it gives you more options. The CG5 is ok for the small focal length work but the EQ6 could handle more. Not as much as the more pricer Vixen Atlux or Losmand G11 but its good for its price. If you consider the Cg5 goto price is the same as price as cost of an EQ6 non-goto added with the MCU upgrade goto kit. Then I would go for EQ6 as it costs delivers the same but with more capacity to carry future OTA's you might purchase.


Regards

[netwolf]

Alternatively if you wanted to spend less but get a better mount for the smaller OTA loads, then consider a second hand Vixen mounts in the lower weight categories. These will offer better precision, though the cost of goto on these is very dear. But do you really need goto for imaging? U could make it push to with a DSC.

Regards

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

Originally Posted by netwolf

But do you really need goto for imaging? U could make it push to with a DSC.

Fahim, seeing as I am going to be spending a fair bit of money on a mount (well, it is a lot to me) I want to spoil myself with GoTo.
The mount I buy will be with me for many years.

22 years of chasing stuff is long enough and I'm getting lazier by the year.

Plus, being spoilt with my dark skies, it would be nice to get to those VERY faint distant Galaxies that have eluded me so far. I have out-grown the hunt for objects that can barely be seen by eye. Time to get with 'the times' and let a computer do the finding for me.

If I am to buy a GoTo, I'd rather get one that is 'Factory Fitted'. I have had enough of building, patching, repairing, modifying and generally 'making do with added bits and pieces'. At least if it plays up I know I will have a warranty to fall back on.

[iceman (Mike)]

Your investigations are keeping me very interested, Ken.. this thread is a wealth of information so thanks to those contributing to it.

I'll be upgrading to an EQ6 (or unlikely, bigger) in the near future and also am investigating buying an EQ6 for someone who doesn't know a great deal about astronomy.. so this information is helping a great deal.

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

Yep Mike, I hope all the info people are giving will help quite a few others too.

I was going to wait until camp to do an investigative snoop around and see what is what and value for quality etc. But I have made up my mind already. After reading all the help in here, reading many reviews, talking to the 2 commonly known Telescope suppliers, and emails back and forth with owners of mounts and the great help from Dave47Tuc helping me understand a lot, I have come to the decision that I am getting a HEQ5 Pro with V.3 Synscan.

It has proven to be the best for my money and will happily carry a larger load than my ED80 later on.

It will be several weeks before this model is available so I won't have it in time for camp.

I thank everyone for their input. It has not gone to waste.

Just because I have made my decision doesn't mean the conversation has to stop here though. I'm sure others like Mike for example would like to know as much as possible about making choices between different mounts.

Here is the one I have chosen: http://www.opticalvision.co.uk/documents/71.pdf

[ving (David)]

any idea how much the heq5 pro with the ver.3 will cost ken?
looks flash!

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

I will let you know the exact dollars soon Vingo. The one I am getting is the brand new model which isn't due to be released for a few weeks yet. But it is under $2000.

[allan gould]

Ken
You will not regret your choice as I have an HEQ5-Pro with ver 3 handset. When they sort out a few bugs with the software it will be excellent. Im currently running a C8 with 70mm guidescope and 350D on the mount and it guides beautifully. Also running a WO ED 80mm triplet APO and its just beautiful.
Enjoy your choice as it will give many years of use before you run up against its limits and that will only be if you get aperture fever - but an 8" +/- a focal reducer will let you image many many objects.