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  #21  
Old 14-09-2015, 04:32 PM
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pluto (Hugh)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewJ View Post
but what do you reckon will happen NBN wise if he gets full control as PM
Nothing, this incarnation of the NBN was his idea and I doubt that will change.
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  #22  
Old 14-09-2015, 05:40 PM
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Ah if only ambition was matched by ability.
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  #23  
Old 14-09-2015, 05:43 PM
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  #24  
Old 14-09-2015, 06:26 PM
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I have given up predicting what will happen to the NBN, at this point all I know is that it will take far longer and cost far more than it should and will probably sooner or later end up at the mostly fibre endpoint in any case. Even the government have more or less admitted that it will start needing to be upgraded by the time it is finished.

We don't even know if the vaunted VDSL plus vectoring solution will scale up and actually work as described.

Last edited by The_bluester; 14-09-2015 at 07:21 PM.
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  #25  
Old 14-09-2015, 07:20 PM
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There is an article today in the Sydney Morning Herald by Lucy Battersby and Marc Moncrief under the headline "These are the muddy and broken copper phone lines that NBN Co is buying from Telstra".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucy Battersby and Marc Moncrief, Sydney Morning Herald
It is taking Telstra overall longer to repair phone lines damaged during extreme weather than previous years, leaving some consumers and businesses without service and ineligible for compensation.

However, the cost of fixing copper network outages in the street will soon transfer to the government-owned NBN Co, under a re-written multi-billion dollar deal with Telstra.

...

NBN Co becomes responsible for maintaining the copper lines between nodes and premises. Its latest corporate plan was full of warnings that degraded copper connections could delay the roll out and increase overall costs.

"The quality of this [copper] network is not fully known as there has been limited opportunity to evaluate the physical infrastructure at significant scale," it states.

NBN chief executive Bill Morrow also revealed Telstra did not release any information about the copper network until after the $11 billion deal was renegotiated.

"If there is a case to where the copper is just in such poor condition that we can't offer the speeds that the government has made us commit to, then we won't use copper in that area. If it means pulling in fibre or fixed wireless towers, that's what we'll do," he said on August 24.

Unlike the NBN started under Labor, which planned to replace the copper connections with end-to-end fibre at 93 per cent of premises, Communications Minister Malcolm Turnbull has asked NBN Co to re-design the network to include the copper connection at millions of premises.
Article here -
http://www.smh.com.au/technology/tec...12-gjl9kj.html
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  #26  
Old 14-09-2015, 07:21 PM
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TiWi Island timber. Massive losses but MT cleaned up.
Can self interest and ambition see a successful NBN probably not.
Funny goggle does not seem to hold the facts about TiWi...anywhere..that's slick.
The money trail seems to have disappeared.
Give us a decent BBB or the trail may magically appear.
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  #27  
Old 14-09-2015, 07:59 PM
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I always get a giggle out of sites like this
http://delimiter.com.au/2012/05/01/w...opper-network/
Makes you wonder how long the copper will really last.

Andrew
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  #28  
Old 14-09-2015, 08:28 PM
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Great link Andrew.
Who is the minister responsible.
I would not want him running the country.
All bad stuff but is it the fault of copper or the fault of the minister.
Well the buck stops where...
We sorry been busy with leadership stuff.
Ambition v ability.
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  #29  
Old 14-09-2015, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_bluester View Post
We don't even know if the vaunted VDSL plus vectoring solution will scale up and actually work as described.
Hi Paul,

From an information theory perspective, vectoring is tackling the wrong
part of the Shannon-Hartley theorem.

The theorem states -

C = B * log2 * (1 + S/N)

Where
log2 is the log to the base of 2;
C is the channel capacity in bits per second;
B is the bandwidth of the channel in hertz;
S is the average received signal power over the bandwidth ;
N is the average noise or interference power over the bandwidth ;
S/N is the the signal-to-noise ratio (SNR)

What we are trying to do is maximize channel capacity.
One can either make S/N larger or make B larger or both.

What vectoring attempts to do is to make N smaller so as to make
S/N larger.

On a copper transmission line, a common noise source (N) in
practice comes about from what electrical engineers refer to as
Far End Crosstalk (FEXT).

FEXT in turn results from mutual inductive and capacitive coupling
and they in turn are a consequence of Maxwell's equations.
[The elegant vector calculus form of Maxwell's equations that
we most commonly see were formulated by Olivier Heaviside,
an electrical engineer].

Vectoring attempts to mitigate the effects of FEXT.

But whatever we do to improve S/N will only improve the
channel capacity by a factor of log to the base 2, a relatively
flat curve.

For example, log2(2) =1 and log2(8) = 3.

The alternative is to improve B, which then provides a linear increase
in channel capacity. We increase B by many fold when going from
copper to optical fibre.

There are enormous other benefits a FTTP network has over FTTN
including that the former is passive - it has no electricity running
through it. This makes it far more reliable.

To bring about vectoring, one needs powered nodes in the street with
relatively high performance computing elements inside them. The failure
of most modern electronic systems is commonly rooted in thermodynamics
effects. You want to avoid points of failure such as boxes full of electronics
operating 24/7 in the heat and cold out on the street.

As we also know, including myself personally from the copper to my
own premise, the copper network in many streets has deteriorated past
its use-by date. It is literally falling apart.

A short while ago Malcolm Turnbull resigned as Communications Minister.


Image credit of log2 from Wikipedia Commons.
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  #30  
Old 14-09-2015, 09:22 PM
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Gday Alex
Quote:
All bad stuff but is it the fault of copper or the fault of the minister.
It is the fault of the current privatised capitalist system.
Most privatised entities appear to change very quickly to a subcontracted "maintenance by failure" mode ie they figure its cheaper to hire a third party to fix something when it breaks vs maintain it using their own staff to a level where failure is minimised.
Once the govt told Telstra that they would be buying out the final bits of copper as part of FTTN proposal, there would have been no incentive for Telstra to spend anything on doing a proper job.

Andrew
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  #31  
Old 14-09-2015, 09:48 PM
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Yep. I am broadly aware of what vectoring is attempting to do, and I don't hold much hope of it actually achieving the end pushed by the libs.

Something they don't talk about is that until all other carrier services are out of the copper bundle, they can not even switch it on so the NBN services might even be slower than DSL (Download wise anyway)

Edited to add that the announcement came through that the former Comms minister became the pm while I wrote this. Not that I expect that to change the NBN, the have spent too long and made too much noise about making it "not like the ALP NBN" to und the complicated mess they have made it into.

Last edited by The_bluester; 14-09-2015 at 10:01 PM.
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  #32  
Old 14-09-2015, 10:09 PM
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It is a failure of our elected leaders to recognise the technically superior technology and implement it. Instead they play politics with it. As a result we will wait and pay twice.

Capitalism has evolved to far too short a cycle to ever invest in this stuff.

My understanding is it is now too late to return to FTTP unless we want many more years of delays.
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  #33  
Old 14-09-2015, 10:39 PM
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That is the irony of it, most of what is currently getting built is fttp. The new FTTN stuff has not made it out of trials yet and the hfc is a long way off.

It is pretty unclear if ramping fttp design back up and pressing on would actually be a delay of not. I suspect not. The advantage of the hfc network buyout may be the ability to assume the Optus position on poles (where there are two aerial HFC networks, Optus is the top one) improving the chance of design success.
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  #34  
Old 14-09-2015, 10:47 PM
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The problem with changing back to FTTP is to do with the contracts. 'We' had a contract with Telstra, 'we' have just renegotiated a contract with Telstra. Do you want to start that again?

Yes, NBNco could pull out the old designs and run with, manage it better, be more open about the cost and timeline but I don't see that happening.
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  #35  
Old 15-09-2015, 06:57 AM
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Without knowing what is actually in the contracts, the main difference now is that they will actually own the copper and HFC networks. If that actually means they are free to decommission and repalce them with fibre is really just speculation, problem is in the case of the copper, you have to replace it then decommission it not the other way around.

The HFC networks are another kettle of fish too complications wise. OPtus for instance have a lot of commercial services (Other than HFC based ones) on the fibre that provides the transmission of the HFC network, I would assume that the fibre does not end up owned by NBN as a result.
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  #36  
Old 15-09-2015, 11:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
A short while ago Malcolm Turnbull resigned as Communications Minister.
That was probably a little bit of hope for you Gary
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