future electricity strategy - AGL

[andyc (Andy)]

Originally Posted by Wavytone

Before you all get too excited about solar power, a few sobering thoughts concerning NSW (for example) - from the publicly available annual reports of the network operators:

1. NSW annual electricity consumption for 2914 : 91,000 GWh
2. Net solar power into the grid: 850 MWh which is less than 0.001% of the demand;
3. Net wind power into the grid : 1,600 GWh which is about 1.5%.

And bear in mind both wind and solar are only produced because of a political interference (the subsidies) to distort what should have been a free market; without the subsidy neither are viable economically.

You appear to be comparing apples to oranges here: the data for Solar PV generation in NSW is 1.178GWh, or about 1.3% of total electricity consumption, or to put it another way, 1000x your figure, and much more relevant to the demand figures. And you'd need to do a lot less than cover the country with turbines or panels to generate an awful lot more (see Clive's info as a mere starter). After all, you have to look fairly hard to find the wind turbines over NSW's 800,000sq km, the wind and solar power resource has hardly been tapped compared to many countries!

As for subsidies, don't make me laugh, quite apart from financial support, the thermal power stations get to use the atmosphere and ocean as a free dustbin with well-known physical consequences that they are unwilling to pay for... that is a subsidy paid for by everybody, now and into the future.

[clive milne]

It's pleasing to see the voice of reason gaining traction in a world I had presumed to be mad beyond redemption.

[bugeater (Marty)]

Originally Posted by wavytone

and before you armchair experts try to throw the theory at me, spare your fingers, the reality unfortunately shows a rather different picture.

ha!

[bugeater (Marty)]

Originally Posted by andyc

You appear to be comparing apples to oranges here: the data for Solar PV generation in NSW is 1.178GWh, or about 1.3% of total electricity consumption, or to put it another way, 1000x your figure, and much more relevant to the demand figures. And you'd need to do a lot less than cover the country with turbines or panels to generate an awful lot more (see Clive's info as a mere starter). After all, you have to look fairly hard to find the wind turbines over NSW's 800,000sq km, the wind and solar power resource has hardly been tapped compared to many countries!

As for subsidies, don't make me laugh, quite apart from financial support, the thermal power stations get to use the atmosphere and ocean as a free dustbin with well-known physical consequences that they are unwilling to pay for... that is a subsidy paid for by everybody, now and into the future.

It really is amazing how all the sins of coal generation are just swept under the carpet. People like our treasurer don't like the look of wind turbines, but I guess big open pit mines are just fine. Then there are the subsidies mining gets and all the excess deaths that occur in the community as a result of pollution generated by coal generators. But who cares? Lets make up fake diseases like wind turbine disease....
And then there is carbon dioxide....

[Exfso (Peter)]

Personally, I would take with a grain of salt what the supply companies say, they are all in it for the profit. Maybe I am a cynic, but here in SA since it went private, the cost of electricity to the consumer has at the very least doubled. We are now the most expensive state in the most expensive county in the world for the cost of electricity, and I believe have had that dubious distinction for some time, thanks to the greed of the private electicity providers. That is the main reason I went solar. For those that say they are subsidising me, think again, It cost me $13.5k for a 4.5kw system, I was most definitely out of pocket and the reason I did it was looking at the long term. Solar sytems are about a third of the cost now compared to what I paid, and the solar feedin tariffs are correspondingly low if not non existant. It will take me several years yet to be square with the ledger.

[bugeater (Marty)]

Originally Posted by Exfso

Personally, I would take with a grain of salt what the supply companies say, they are all in it for the profit. Maybe I am a cynic, but here in SA since it went private, the cost of electricity to the consumer has at the very least doubled. We are now the most expensive state in the most expensive county in the world for the cost of electricity, and I believe have had that dubious distinction for some time, thanks to the greed of the private electicity providers. That is the main reason I went solar. For those that say they are subsidising me, think again, It cost me $13.5k for a 4.5kw system, I was most definitely out of pocket and the reason I did it was looking at the long term. Solar sytems are about a third of the cost now compared to what I paid, and the solar feedin tariffs are correspondingly low if not non existant. It will take me several years yet to be square with the ledger.

These are regulated industries. There is a lot more at play than simply private providers are "greedy". I don't know the exact SA situation, but it's likely that network reliability requirements meant more needed to be spent. This flows through to your bill. The big thing that loads the grid to breaking point? - air conditioning. So you could say those without aircon are subsidising those with it. Has air conditioning been taken up in a big way since the network was privatised?

[Exfso (Peter)]

Marty, I take your point, but I reckon that the Regulation needs to be regulated here in SA, the power companies seem to get whatever they ask for, no questions asked, and it is the poor consumers that are copping the end result. It is not just a coincidence that the cost of electricity went through the roof here when the system was privatised. I believe that is the case wherever privatisation has taken place, but I can only go on what has happened in SA. Another gem is the cost of water here, don't start me on that mess

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by astroron

Are you really saying that the power generating industries have not bee subsidized
Don't make me laugh
One of the big problems as I see it is the grid system being used to supply places hundreds of kilometers away from the generation source.
Smaller towns and cities should have their own power generating systems.
Solar and wind can supply smaller communities,let the big cities have their big power stations
Hundreds of klms of power cables and poles could be done away with.
Seems funny that countries like the USA and Germany Spain etc are going down the renewable energy route.
It will take time to get this country upto a good % of renewable energy,
The delay is down to a large extent by the mining and energy companies undermining it and bent governments abetting them.
Cheers

What youve described isn'f far away from what was done in the 1800s and early 1900s.
When the load is small and islanded, it is very hard to get generation to match demand. You end up with wasted generation capacity, and either significantly higher electricity prices, or subsidies are required.

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Originally Posted by bugeater

These are regulated industries. There is a lot more at play than simply private providers are "greedy".

That regulation has its limits. Each generator submits a schedule of pricing at which it is willing to generate. If the big generators colluded to increase their prices, the market price has no choice but to react accordingly. With Morwell gone, and either Hazelwood or Yallourn likely to follow soon, this gives the remaining large generator Loy Yang (owned by GDF Suez and AGL) immense power (if you’ll excuse the pun) to affect pricing.

[inertia8 (Australia)]

I remember looking at our past accounts late last year...

2008 14.4c/KwH
2014 28.7c/KwH

Have wanted solar for ages but means we'd have to cut down one tree on our own land to the west of the house. Unfortunately there's 2 trees on council land to the north which cast long shadows over most of my available roof space. One of the trees we seriously believe to be a safety issue as half of it is leaning toward our property and would definitely crash through the wall/roof of our north-west master bedroom should it fall in the direction it is leaning.

We raised this prior to solar being pushed heavily and the council assessed it safe but they did strap the trunks together up high year ago... how long do those straps last before they will snap under the strain?

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by AussieTrooper

What youve described isn'f far away from what was done in the 1800s and early 1900s.
When the load is small and islanded, it is very hard to get generation to match demand. You end up with wasted generation capacity, and either significantly higher electricity prices, or subsidies are required.

That was a loooooooooooong time ago, things have moved on since then.
Smaller more efficient and powerful generators and alternative systems are now available.
Cheers

[Hagar (Doug)]

That wouldn't happen, that would be illegal.