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  #21  
Old 10-03-2015, 11:14 AM
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GeoffW1 (Geoff)
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Hi,

Do have a read in "The Eerie Silence" by Prof Paul Davies, an Australian heavily involved in SETI considerations.

The title refers to the Fermi Paradox, which can be expressed in Enrico Fermi's own words "Where is everybody?"

Davies makes many good points, which can be summarised as saying that we just don't know enough about anything, and that the whole SETI listening and signalling program could easily be a complete waste of time and money.

We don't even know how or where life arose here (or on Mars originally maybe?), and therefore whether life on an Earth-like planet (never mind other kinds of planets) is inevitable or just a rare accident. Then, we don't know if the evolution of technological intelligence is inevitable after life arises, or is another possibly unique, accident.

All the methodology we are using now supposes to some degree that intelligent life out there will be sort of like us to some degree, in that we would recognise their signals, and they ours. We don't have any evidence that is the case at all. We may be completely unable to recognise ET's communications, in the way that the ancient Egyptians could not have coped with a Facebook message.

So, I think we are jumping the gun looking and listening right now. I'd spend all the money in investigating Mars and researching the origins of life first.

Cheers
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  #22  
Old 10-03-2015, 11:24 AM
Zaps
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden View Post
The Voyager Golden Record and Active SETI aside, we've already been transmitting television and radio signals for the better part of 100 years.
Inverse-square law: Those signals are completely lost to background noise long before they propagate far.
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  #23  
Old 10-03-2015, 12:16 PM
AndrewJ
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Suzy, have you seen the movie Battleship starring Liam
Based on that, we have nothing to fear.
Just make shields from whatever material that anchor chain was made from and nothing will get through.

Andrew
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  #24  
Old 10-03-2015, 12:28 PM
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They're already here .... some of them are on this Site

Flash .....
I so do wish the was a "Like this Post" button on IIS
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  #25  
Old 10-03-2015, 12:36 PM
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Nice one Col,

Leon
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  #26  
Old 10-03-2015, 03:08 PM
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They're already here .... some of them are on this Site

Flash .....
Are you coming out Col??
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  #27  
Old 10-03-2015, 03:18 PM
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wasyoungonce (Brendan)
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meh...if Aliens had the ability to travel thru interstellar space then why would they want to take earth for resources? Much much easier to mine the asteroid and Kuiper belt and asteroid belts and Oort cloud for mineral rich deposits.

We would be just too much trouble!
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  #28  
Old 10-03-2015, 03:42 PM
PeterEde (Peter)
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If we sent a signal other than what we have been for 100+ years. By the time it gets to anywhere will be 1000s of years off. In that time we could assume with leaps in technology we would have the means to defend ourselves.
Thinking the time for a dedicated signal to reach another world would be 1000s year plus the time for them to reach us. I think we'd be pretty save. Imagine the levels of our technology before they got here
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  #29  
Old 10-03-2015, 03:48 PM
PeterEde (Peter)
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Well hopefully who ever gets our message I hope it's not the Borg, Romulans or the Klingons. ET seems nice enough
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  #30  
Old 10-03-2015, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AstralTraveller View Post
Are you coming out Col??
eeer..!! no ...... and I'm not telling you where my Space Ship is .....

Col....

Last edited by FlashDrive; 10-03-2015 at 06:15 PM. Reason: correction
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  #31  
Old 10-03-2015, 05:23 PM
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I fear that by the time another civilisation gets interested enough in a self-destructive species like Homo sapiens, which rather ironically comes from Latin for 'Wise man', we as a species will be long gone.

In the meantime I am going to enjoy my cellar of Penfolds reds.........
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  #32  
Old 10-03-2015, 08:57 PM
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The tricky bit is to know just when to send out your resume before the slave pits open

Contacting other worlds ?,,I think fear greed and prejudice has us all tied up for a while killing each other for now ,when we sort that out ,,then maybe we start to look seriously for other fights to start.
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  #33  
Old 10-03-2015, 09:24 PM
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troypiggo (Troy)
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One thing is for certain: there is no stopping them; the ants will soon be here. And I for one welcome our new insect overlords. I’d like to remind them that as a trusted IceInSpace member, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.
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  #34  
Old 10-03-2015, 09:24 PM
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tonybarry (Tony)
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Coincidentally I have been reading up on the Wow! signal received in 1977.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wow!_signal

It seems interesting, until you realise that it becomes very difficult for it to pass as science (because it is very hard to have a repeatable test for such things).

So whatever we do to detect ETs, it has to be science based or we are really just wasting time. If it cannot be verified then we can't discuss it except by using faith based language, and that always fouls things up.

The Wiki article suggests that the transmission of the Wow signal, if from interstellar space, would require 2.3GW ... not an insignificant amount of power to dump into an antenna.

Regards,
Tony Barry
WSAAG
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  #35  
Old 10-03-2015, 10:42 PM
rally
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Its an interesting question Suzy.

My initial thoughts :

If an alien race was so sophisticated to be capable of galactic or intergalactic travel for the puposes of "raiding" planets or seeding new homes for the expansion of new satellite civilisations or even relocation (ie interests that are detrimental to mankind) - then their access to the near unlimited resources to build and manage a vast number of unmanned intergalactic research drones would mean they wouldn't be needing to wait for us to identify ourselves, they would have already have a drone on its way to investigate or perhaps already been and gone.
All of this on time scales well beyond our ordinary imagination.

If their ambition was driven by need, then they wont simply be waiting around for an accidental contact - they'll be proactively using whatever technological means they have to seek out targets that meet their needs.

Or on the other hand - Its already happened and mankind is merely a product of their previous visit ! . . . so we only need to fear ourselves.

As for the broadcasts - on the one hand I think advertising ourselves leaves us vulnerable since we have no idea of the intentions of some other race wanting to come here, assuming that any exist or are likely to detect us given the huge spatial and temporal ranges involved.

But would one of our broadcasts be likely to be heard above the much stronger signals that a technologically advanced race might be capable of measuring now at a planetary level that might potentially be capable of detecting advanced lifeforms, habitabilities, mineral reosurces etc etc from afar.

Eg it was barely more than a decade ago that extraplanetary detection was pipe dream and now we are able to detect planets down to quite small sizes and even determine many of their basic qualities.
So who knows what detection capabilities might be possible if someone had optical and radio telescopes in space that equated to earth size or better yet earth orbit size !
Surely that would be as feasible as interstellar travel.

So if their interest was driven by a real need for resources then they could probably sense that remotely or just infer that from our stars signature, so our broadcasts would possibly be irrelevant.
If their interest was making contact with another advanced civilisation (or a remnant of their own ?) then maybe our broadcasts could be beneficial.

So to some degree I am ambivalent, mainly because I dont really think it will make any difference.
Whatever happens - its all part of the evolutionary process ! and evolution is not necessarily kind to any specific species - just ask the dinosaurs !

As was stated we know so little about everything in this field so I am guessing there can be as many arguments as there are debaters.
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  #36  
Old 11-03-2015, 07:56 AM
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I can just imagine PM Abbott saying "We'll stop the galactic spaceships & save lives by stopping them crossing interstellar space in these unsafe starships".
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  #37  
Old 11-03-2015, 09:27 AM
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Baddad (Marty)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinwheel View Post
I can just imagine PM Abbott saying "We'll stop the galactic spaceships & save lives by stopping them crossing interstellar space in these unsafe starships".


I like that one Doug.
I can imagine that aliens may abduct the Mad Monk to probe and investigate why a human has very little common sense that is normally associated with an intelligent brain.
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  #38  
Old 11-03-2015, 09:38 AM
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We have to develop warp drive first before they contact us.

I would like like to see contact established with some-one out there, our planet needs a bit of a shake up.
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  #39  
Old 11-03-2015, 12:13 PM
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TechnoViking (James)
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a funny look at why Aliens will not visit us, Neil Degrasse Tyson.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74yIuLTMyJw
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  #40  
Old 11-03-2015, 02:28 PM
clive milne
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The following article appeared in the Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/leslie...b_6717872.html

It was the tweet heard round the worlds. On John Podesta's last day at the White House on February 13th, the longtime Presidential counselor, who is likely to chair a 2016 Hillary Clinton campaign, dashed off a confession that lit the blogosphere with thousands of retweets and comments: "Finally, my biggest failure of 2014: Once again not securing the #disclosure of the UFO files."

Along with the media, which couldn't resist a spoof by late-night comedian Jimmy Fallon, conspiracy theorists are having a field day. Taking Podesta's barb as confirmation of fantastic coverups by operatives with knowledge of extraterrestrials and twisted political agendas, they imagine Podesta himself holds devastating secrets. Some are claiming with bravado that their own activism is what prompted his recent lighthearted remark.

The facts hardly bear that out.

Actually, as surprising as the tweet was, Podesta's position on the controversial issue was not exactly news. A staunch proponent of open government, he has previously called for the release of any government files on unidentified flying objects, or more broadly, unidentified aerial phenomena (UAP), that merit such action under existing law. As Chief of Staff for President Bill Clinton, Podesta pressed for Executive Order 12958 which declassified broad categories of information formerly withheld on the grounds of national security.

In 2002, Podesta began publicly supporting what became a landmark Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit filed by the Coalition for Freedom of Information, an independent advocacy group. NASA had been stonewalling and refusing to release its records concerning a significant 1965 UFO incident in Kecksburg, PA. Many witnesses described seeing a fireball in the evening sky, followed by a controlled landing and the systematic military recovery of a spacecraft-like object, rushed away on the back of a flatbed truck. As reported by local radio and newspapers, U.S. military personnel cordoned off the area, investigated the site, and left without ever providing a full report of the incident other than to dismiss it as a meteor.



One of many witness drawings of the Kecksburg object. Cell phones were not in use then. (Credit: courtesy Stan Gordon)

During the lawsuit's final hearing in U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia in 2007, the exasperated Presiding Judge, Emmet G. Sullivan, declared that "heads should roll" at NASA and that NASA's case was a "ball of yarn." He approved a settlement that required NASA to comb through hundreds of documents in specified locations, and provide them to journalist and plaintiff Leslie Kean, under the watchful eye of the court.

Success at forcing an agency to do this kind of extensive historical search under FOIA without Congressional intervention was unprecedented. Podesta called the victory "a triumph for open government and the spirit of inquiry."


John Podesta provided public support during the FOIA lawsuit against NASA, filed by the Coalition for Freedom of Information in 2003. (Credit: courtesy SCI FI Channel)

But - there was one problem. The resulting documents did not include one iota of information relating to the Kecksburg case, despite an earnest and thorough effort by NASA staff. Three hundred boxes were searched, on top of the hundreds of pages released during the court proceedings prior to the settlement. Yet they revealed nothing about the case at hand.

Could these be the "UFO files" that Podesta was alluding to in his tweet? Might there be others as well, stored in locations inaccessible to the FOIA in violation of the law?

Podesta has been a brave voice for sanity and objectivity on a subject that is generally considered unworthy of serious discussion. In a foreword for Kean's 2010 book, UFOs: Generals, Pilots and Government Officials Go On the Record, Podesta wrote: "The time to pull the curtain back on this subject is long overdue." Describing himself as "a curious skeptic" who understands the difference between fact and fiction, he said the American people "want to know, and they can handle the truth."

Official investigations around the world have consistently found that a small but significant percentage of sightings defy conventional explanation, most of them involving police officers, military personnel, pilots and air traffic controllers. Physical evidence such as radar returns, measurable effects on the environment, or scientifically analyzed photographs accompany the best cases.

In 2011, Podesta hosted a private meeting of government officials, scientists, and military and intelligence experts, organized by Kean and her coalition, at his liberal think tank, the Center for American Progress. A panel presented expert briefings backing the establishment of a modest official project to evaluate UAP in cooperation with other countries.

"The official position of the U.S., which has denied the existence of any abnormal aerial phenomena since 1969, is a weighty handicap and has a negative influence on the attitude of many governments," wrote Yves Sillard, former Director General of the French National Space Center, in his briefing paper. "If this position could be modified, the U.S. would probably play a leading role in this necessary international effort."

Ricardo Bermúdez, a retired Air Force general who directs the Chilean investigative effort, agrees. "United States participation would be beneficial for all countries," he stated.

A U.S. agency is long overdue. The Air Force's official investigation, Project Blue Book, was terminated in 1970 after two decades, since no sightings were determined to pose a national security threat. Yet over 700 cases remained unexplained. Since then, no branch of the government has investigated UAP.

This lack of both transparency and responsive action to alarming UFO incidents undermines public trust. Some unidentified objects may be attributable to foreign military aircraft or drones, and should be of general defense interest. Other phenomena display such unusual characteristics that they are of broader scientific interest. Under certain circumstances, UAP can even raise air safety concerns. Still, the FAA discourages pilots from reporting any such incidents, in stark contrast to policy in Europe and South America.

Official agencies in France and Chile, along with other South American countries, conduct rigorous, open UAP investigations. In 2014, the heads of these offices met in Paris for the first time, to begin a cooperative venture. The U.K. spent decades collecting data, but closed down its office in 2008 due to the overwhelming stream of Freedom of Information requests besieging the staff. Interest was so great that the Ministry of Defense decided to simply release all its documents online.


Xavier Passot, director of the French UAP agency GEIPAN, and Ricardo Bermúdez of Chile's CEFAA met on Oct. 30, 2014 to initiate a cooperative effort (Credit: courtesy CEFAA)

Yet here at home, a 2012 poll showed that nearly 80% of Americans believe the government has concealed information about UFOs. As a result, frustrated citizens turn to fringe conspiracists seeking some way of understanding our irrational denial of this very real phenomenon.

When UFO events occur here, civilian groups do the best they can in battling the obstacles to investigating them. At Chicago's O'Hare International Airport on Nov. 7, 2006, a metallic disc was observed hovering over the United Airlines terminal for at least five minutes, before shooting straight up in the sky, at great speed, cutting a hole in the cloud bank. This was not a flying machine known to any of the aviation experts who witnessed or later analyzed the event.

On March 13, 1997, hundreds if not thousands of citizens, including the governor at the time, saw massive delta-shaped objects gliding silently over Arizona. Like the Kecksburg case, this event has never been explained despite a class action lawsuit filed in 2000 by witnesses in Phoenix. A court-ordered search for information was issued to the Department of Defense, but once again, no pertinent records were obtained.

Nonetheless, much more data on UFOs has been accumulated than ever before, and files have been released around the world. The phenomenon's physical reality is now firmly established. But its nature and origin remain a problem. Meanwhile, astronomers have reported that there could be as many as 40 billion habitable Earth-size planets in our galaxy; one out of every five sunlike stars has a planet the size of Earth orbiting it in the Goldilocks zone.

We need to join the other countries taking responsible action in addressing this persistent mystery, preferably at the White House level where The Office of Science and Technology Policy is well positioned to take on this task. John Podesta supports the effort to appoint a government staffer for this purpose - and that is no surprise.
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