Lest we forget.

[Jezzcass (Jezz)]

I normally wouldnt post in a thread this far gone but without continuing a pointless argument, I'd just like to say THANK YOU from US Diggers, it's not about glorifying war but about remembering those that fought, weather they wanted to or not (the ADF has quite a history of 'underage' enlistment, I'd say due to a sense of duty not some sinister motive), if you can't appreciate that some men and women gave the ultimate sacrifice regardless of the circumstances then please have the respect to keep that opinion to yourself, least of all on the 25th of April.
Sincerely one of those men that has had incoming rounds, mortars, rockets, IED's and that has carried some of those brave men that gave the ultimate sacrifice.
LEST WE FORGET

[PlanetMan]

Originally Posted by entity62

Interesting read.

Ruling classes around the world have their national myths. These attempt to tie working people to the capitalist class through the false idea of nationhood – a recent historical development.

The Australian version of this national myth is Anzac day. It is supposedly the day Australia became a nation. It celebrates our defeat at Gallipoli in 1915.

It is important to understand the historical context around the establishment of this day. The first Anzac day was held in 1916. The war to end all wars was bogged down in bloody slaughter. In Australia support for the imperialist adventure was split.

Many workers remembered the bitter class battles of the 1890s and the depression that drove many into poverty.

Workers had ignored Federation, despite the cheer squads of Australian capitalism attempting to use that event to glue workers to the system and the exploitation that arises from it. For many workers class was the most important determinant of loyalty.

The war further exacerbated class divisions.

Many rejected outright participation in the battle between two competing imperialisms. Others, influenced by the Labor Party, supported it but opposed conscription.

The class still had a memory of internationalism, and the impending outbreak of revolutions across Europe (including the German revolution, which ended Germany’s war) would only further reinforce this sense of class solidarity across borders and against the common enemy – capital.

Here in Australia the divisions were highlighted by the rapid growth of the Industrial Workers of the World, a revolutionary group committed to a democratic society without bosses. Indeed the “Wobblies” were such a threat that the police and security forces framed leading members for arson, and the state made being a member illegal, closed down their press and finally outlawed the organisation itself.

Conscription was the issue that saw class divisions come out most starkly in Australia. Working people and their parties opposed conscription, and defeated both referendums on the issue. The ALP split, with the forces around Billy Hughes going over to join the Conservatives and form a Government.

In 1917 there was a general strike in Australia. Overseas the Tsar’s regime in Russia collapsed after a five-day strike begun by women workers on International Working Women’s Day.

The first Anzac Day was an attempt to divert anger away from the capitalist class to those who were “disloyal”. It was also an important part of the pro-conscription propaganda.

The immediate concern the ruling class had was that disaffected soldiers – and there were many, having witnessed the reality of war – would link up with the radical sections of society. Anzac day deliberately offered them an alternative, an alternative that celebrated their role and remembered those who died rather than questioning why war occurred and why workers died for profits.

In fact, class polarisation (which reached its apogee in 1917 in Russia with the working class taking power on 7 November) continued in Australia and elsewhere for a number of years after 1916 and 1917. This saw Anzac day almost disappear in the early 1920s.

It revived after that as the revolutionary tide ebbed (exemplified by the rise of Stalin in Russia and Stalinism elsewhere). The forerunner of the RSL rebuilt itself by setting up clubs and pubs and helping returned servicemen and women (especially during the Depression).

World War II saw the idea of Australia, as a nation, “arrive” (and also boosted the popularity of Anzac day).

The sense of class and internationalism lost its way under Stalinism and in Australia the Communist Party wrapped itself in the flag of patriotism to fight the fascists. In fact World War II was a repeat of World War I – the clash of two blocs of imperialism.

Australia has always had an imperialist “protector”. This used to be Britain and is now the US. As part of our ruling class’s desire to be the major imperialist power in the region, we have attached ourselves to a powerful ally which will enable us to carry out that role.

To do that we must pay our dues. That is why we have a long history of following our ally into imperialist adventures around the world.

From Sudan in 1885 to Iraq in 2003 we have participated in a large number of foreign wars to help keep the UK and the US on side with our own expansionist project.

So even though Kevin Rudd pulled out of Iraq he is continuing our role in Afghanistan to show to the US his commitment to the alliance and to allow our own role in the region – East Timor, the Solomon islands, PNG for example – to continue.

Gallipoli itself is an example of our ongoing imperialist view of the world. We were part of a force that invaded a country that we had no quarrel with and which did not threaten us.

Anzac day also performs another function.

War is an integral part of capitalism and imperialism. Most people’s initial reaction is to recoil from war and all the horror it brings. Anzac day downplays that horror and makes war acceptable.

It is propaganda to allow the ruling class to call on the next generation of workers to join the war effort if needed.

And it may divert people’s attention away from immediate economic concerns - I may be losing my house or job but at least we diggers are good fighters and I am so proud my son is in Iraq. Or Afghanistan. Or East Timor. Or the Solomon Islands.

Right now there is war going on around the world. It’s the war of the bosses against workers. The dead are many.

According to the Australian Manufacturing Workers’ Union around the world ‘work is more deadly than war, causing up to 2.3 million fatalities a year through related injuries and disease.’

International Workers’ Memorial Day is this Wednesday 28 April.

A lot of food for thought here

[Exfso (Peter)]

I cannot believe that the mods have let this thread get totally out of hand from its original intent, the mind really boggles. I think they are most definitely AWOL.
This is not a place to debate the ins and outs of war, but to have respect for those that have fallen whilst serving their country during those torrid times. I am horrified at some of the crud that I have read here, I cannot believe that a normal person would come up with such absolute garbage.
Just for information my Father was one of the "Rats of Tobruk", and I saw what he went through every Anzac day until he passed when I was only 19yrs old.

Just for information I pointed out this thread to a mate of mine who spent 30 yrs in the Royal Australian Navy. His reply follows.

Did anyone think to point out to this bloke, that if the soldiers that were sent to the front in WW1 were not sent, his ancestor would have been carrying a rifle in the German army as they would have been a captive state? Why did our people save his ancestors, they wouldn’t have if they had known what sort of ungrateful, self-serving, egotist it would bring forth. Maybe somewhere along the line he might understand the rationale behind ANZAC Day, it is NOT to glorify war or being part of it – it is to show that war does cause grief, does not solve anything, is mud, terror, fear and suffering and the world would be better off without it. All he is doing by rubbishing it is making others argue with him and cause more people to accept the idea that fighting is an acceptable way to stop idiots making light of your suffering and respect. There stands a man with the sympathies of a rock and nearly the same IQ.

[LewisM]

I surely was not expecting to see the union drivel/dribble expounded in such a thread. Considering the despicable actions of the Wharfies during WW2, I find it utterly astounding someone mentioned the "plight" of union sheeple...

Not sure this thread SHOULD be locked. Better to expose them for what they are

[entity62]

I think the "sheeple" could be said for ANZAC lovers.

[LewisM]

Originally Posted by entity62

Interesting read.

Ruling classes around the world have their national myths. These attempt to tie working people to the capitalist class through the false idea of nationhood – a recent historical development.

The Australian version of this national myth is Anzac day. It is supposedly the day Australia became a nation. It celebrates our defeat at Gallipoli in 1915.

It is important to understand the historical context around the establishment of this day. The first Anzac day was held in 1916. The war to end all wars was bogged down in bloody slaughter. In Australia support for the imperialist adventure was split.

Many workers remembered the bitter class battles of the 1890s and the depression that drove many into poverty.

Workers had ignored Federation, despite the cheer squads of Australian capitalism attempting to use that event to glue workers to the system and the exploitation that arises from it. For many workers class was the most important determinant of loyalty.

The war further exacerbated class divisions.

Many rejected outright participation in the battle between two competing imperialisms. Others, influenced by the Labor Party, supported it but opposed conscription.

The class still had a memory of internationalism, and the impending outbreak of revolutions across Europe (including the German revolution, which ended Germany’s war) would only further reinforce this sense of class solidarity across borders and against the common enemy – capital.

Here in Australia the divisions were highlighted by the rapid growth of the Industrial Workers of the World, a revolutionary group committed to a democratic society without bosses. Indeed the “Wobblies” were such a threat that the police and security forces framed leading members for arson, and the state made being a member illegal, closed down their press and finally outlawed the organisation itself.

Conscription was the issue that saw class divisions come out most starkly in Australia. Working people and their parties opposed conscription, and defeated both referendums on the issue. The ALP split, with the forces around Billy Hughes going over to join the Conservatives and form a Government.

In 1917 there was a general strike in Australia. Overseas the Tsar’s regime in Russia collapsed after a five-day strike begun by women workers on International Working Women’s Day.

The first Anzac Day was an attempt to divert anger away from the capitalist class to those who were “disloyal”. It was also an important part of the pro-conscription propaganda.

The immediate concern the ruling class had was that disaffected soldiers – and there were many, having witnessed the reality of war – would link up with the radical sections of society. Anzac day deliberately offered them an alternative, an alternative that celebrated their role and remembered those who died rather than questioning why war occurred and why workers died for profits.

In fact, class polarisation (which reached its apogee in 1917 in Russia with the working class taking power on 7 November) continued in Australia and elsewhere for a number of years after 1916 and 1917. This saw Anzac day almost disappear in the early 1920s.

It revived after that as the revolutionary tide ebbed (exemplified by the rise of Stalin in Russia and Stalinism elsewhere). The forerunner of the RSL rebuilt itself by setting up clubs and pubs and helping returned servicemen and women (especially during the Depression).

World War II saw the idea of Australia, as a nation, “arrive” (and also boosted the popularity of Anzac day).

The sense of class and internationalism lost its way under Stalinism and in Australia the Communist Party wrapped itself in the flag of patriotism to fight the fascists. In fact World War II was a repeat of World War I – the clash of two blocs of imperialism.

Australia has always had an imperialist “protector”. This used to be Britain and is now the US. As part of our ruling class’s desire to be the major imperialist power in the region, we have attached ourselves to a powerful ally which will enable us to carry out that role.

To do that we must pay our dues. That is why we have a long history of following our ally into imperialist adventures around the world.

From Sudan in 1885 to Iraq in 2003 we have participated in a large number of foreign wars to help keep the UK and the US on side with our own expansionist project.

So even though Kevin Rudd pulled out of Iraq he is continuing our role in Afghanistan to show to the US his commitment to the alliance and to allow our own role in the region – East Timor, the Solomon islands, PNG for example – to continue.

Gallipoli itself is an example of our ongoing imperialist view of the world. We were part of a force that invaded a country that we had no quarrel with and which did not threaten us.

Anzac day also performs another function.

War is an integral part of capitalism and imperialism. Most people’s initial reaction is to recoil from war and all the horror it brings. Anzac day downplays that horror and makes war acceptable.

It is propaganda to allow the ruling class to call on the next generation of workers to join the war effort if needed.

And it may divert people’s attention away from immediate economic concerns - I may be losing my house or job but at least we diggers are good fighters and I am so proud my son is in Iraq. Or Afghanistan. Or East Timor. Or the Solomon Islands.

Right now there is war going on around the world. It’s the war of the bosses against workers. The dead are many.

According to the Australian Manufacturing Workers’ Union around the world ‘work is more deadly than war, causing up to 2.3 million fatalities a year through related injuries and disease.’

International Workers’ Memorial Day is this Wednesday 28 April.

Trotsky would be proud of his minion.

[PlanetMan]

No apology necessary - it is all about sharing ideas/knowledge

The mini essay strikes me more as political science/analysis

I personally found it interesting albeit depressing about what human beings and our societies are all about - which is perhaps why I come here to mostly think about looking up at the universe

[LewisM]

THAT is a good point!

[casstony]

most people are decent I think and the good side of human nature prevails in the general populace. unfortunately we're also easily manipulated and ignorant to the activities of the truly selfish few at the top who pull the strings.

[Matt Wastell (Matt)]

I find the Anzac Day reflection quite appropriate, each to their own.
The effect war (in particular the First World War) had on our early Nation was profound.
At the time our population was under 5 million, over 400,000 enlisted (sense of duty or adventure) and our casualties were horrific - 60,000 were killed and 156,000 wounded or taken prisoner. I believe we lost 8,000 at Gallipoli.
War may not be the answer but if you do not reflect, challenge, acknowledge and learn we will continue making the same mistakes.

[casstony]

We do plenty of remembering, but there is almost zero analysis of the causes of war in an effort to avoid them in future. This does the fallen a great disservice since their greatest wish was that their sacrifice would prevent future generations from suffering the same fate.

[Matt Wastell (Matt)]

Unfortunately war will probably remain as one of humanities ongoing legacies - It may be small conciliation but we have a zero casualty approach to engagement.
This has been an interesting (albeit an emotional) thread.

[entity62]

In Alan Bennett’s play The History Boys one of the characters says: “The best way to forget something is to commemorate it.” Nothing exemplifies that more than the way that Anzac Day commemoration has resulted in Australians either forgetting what they knew about Gallipoli, or never learning the truth.

For many returned servicemen and women and their families Anzac Day is a solemn day of remembrance, but much of what Australians believe about it, and what images and ideas it inspires, have been products more of recent PR and propaganda than of memory.

Alec Campbell, socialist, trade unionist, republican and the last Australian who served at Gallipoli, was almost deified by John Howard. Brendan Nelson wanted all Australian schools to teach “values” through the prism of John Simpson Kirkpatrick, (the famous Simpson and his donkey) who, it is generally agreed, was a drinker and a brawler; jumped ship and came to Australia as an illegal immigrant; was a bit of a slacker at times and probably acquired the donkey as a way of avoiding working with anyone else; was in favour of a revolution to “clear out millionaires and dukes”; and, had enlisted so that he could get back to his family in Britain.

These realities were conveniently omitted from the Howard-Nelson version of history, although it is tempting to think school kids would be better off learning about the Campbell and Kirkpatrick values than some other ones stuffed down their throats.

The basic facts about Gallipoli are also well-known, but seemingly feature little in either Anzac iconography or political rhetoric. For a start Australia suffered 8709 casualties at Gallipoli (Department of Veterans Affairs Anzac website) compared with 86,692 Turks, 21,255 Britains and 9798 French.

There were also 1358 Indians and 49 Newfoundland casualties. Gallipoli has been a battleground for millennia and its modern significance is probably mainly due to Kemal Ataturk’s role there, and subsequently in modern Turkey. Yet Australians have been persuaded to believe that its significance is primarily Australian through a process that framed the event as a founding national event; promoted it as a unique opportunity to express Australian patriotism; and then commercialised it through tourism and other activities.

The legend was shaped from the very beginning by British journalist Ellis Ashmead-Bartlett; Australian war historian C.E.W. Bean; Sir Keith Murdoch; and C.J.Dennis in The Sentimental Bloke.

But why it has became newly iconic after being in long-term decline from the 1960s is a puzzle. Ken Inglis’ view of Anzac as providing something sacred for a secular society is persuasive. Inge Clendinnen is right to remind us of the significance of his work just as Henry Reynolds and Marilyn Lake are right to ask why we celebrate Anzac Day and not our pioneering role in unionism, social welfare and women’s suffrage.

But the full picture is impossible to grasp without considering the expensive and well-planned PR programs designed to help us remember Anzac Day in a particular way.


The long-term decline was reversed from the 1990s, first, by Bob Hawke at the Anzac Day 75th anniversary. It was then consolidated with the Australian Remembers campaign in 1994-95 to mark the 50th anniversary of the end of World War II. And it culminated in the Howard government’s deification of the digger and militarism.

While the speeches, events and commemorations were the public face of a memorial campaign, behind them all were PR and marketing campaigns. The Australia Remembers campaign was run by the minister for veterans affairs, Con Sciacca, his chief-of-staff Greg Rudd, John Engledow, deputy head of an Australia Remembers Taskforce and Peter Thomas as a roving ambassador.

Peter Thomas, a former army officer, and an experienced PR practitioner who had headed Telstra PR, said in a case study summary of the campaign that it was “possibly the last opportunity for many veterans, servicemen and servicewomen to be honoured. These people, and those who served but are no longer with us, have a special place in the history of Australia. They are an enduring beacon for us all”.

And many of us who worked on the campaign sincerely believed that. Yet there is little doubt that there was also political calculation involved — and it was fairly easy for some of us to believe in the Australia Remembers and the Labor cause at the same time.

Traditionally the RSL leadership (although many ordinary diggers were on the left) were strong supporters of Empire, Crown, conservatism and strongly anti-Labor. Australia Remembers gave the ALP the opportunity to re-position itself as the patriotic party — which it had always been but which conservatives had managed to frame as otherwise.

Later state ALPs adopted similar tactics. Victorian ALP veterans affairs adviser and Vietnam vet John Phillips played a brilliant role in building bridges with ex-service people and the RSL, working to get a better deal for veterans and using skilful commemorative tactics to re-position the Bracks and Brumby governments among veterans.

Australia Remembers used the full gamut of PR activities — particularly at grassroots level. Grants were made to local communities to conduct events including community events around local Anzac Day services that, instead of the main Anzac Day March, became (and continue to be) the focal point of Anzac Day services around the country.

Forty years ago there were fewer and fewer marchers and fewer and fewer onlookers. After the Australia Remembers campaign there were thousands of small community events involving hundreds of thousands of people across Australia.

Many of the campaign elements — re-enactments, commercial tie-ups, events — were standard PR techniques that tapped into the patriotism that had been kindled as part of the 1988 Bicentennial celebrations; the 75th Anzac Day anniversary; and gave local people an opportunity to develop forms of commemoration distinctive to their community.

They also, unfortunately, produced a platform for the new nationalism; distrust of foreigners and refugees; and, the military adventurism of the Howard government.

All the techniques used in the US to promote war — farewells for troops; the concept that criticising the wars was wrong because it was disloyal to “our troops”; symbolic visits to the troops in combat zones — were also used by the Howard government. The Australian military now even employs brand managers just like fast-food companies.

However, the US efforts are far more comprehensive simply because the US military employs more PR people than any other organisation in the world.

As long as wars go on, politicians continue to think of new ways to commemorate them, new PR gestures, and new ways to “honour” those who served. People I served with in Vietnam are still fighting to get better health and pension entitlements, but we have now been awarded more medals in the past 10 years than we were awarded for serving in the first place.

With every one of these additional postwar decorations we were all given the opportunity of having presented them by our local MP or getting them through the post. Most chose Australia Post.

[entity62]

Sorry. The 2 essay I posted were written by others.
First essay http://enpassant.com.au/2010/04/24/t...-of-anzac-day/
Second essay http://www.crikey.com.au/2010/04/22/...ing-anzac-day/
I did not give them credit, as it could have lead to attacks on there left/right thinking.

Sorry again.

Darrell

[PCH (Paul)]

Hey Darrell,

Thanks for the links to the essays. They present a very interesting set of views and facts surrounding the ANZAC event.

All the best buddy

[iceman (Mike)]

Not the best time to have a thread blow up, when the moderators are away.

As usual on ANZAC day Bert decides to hijack the thread with his own agenda. He's been banned for 5 days.

I did my best to clean up the thread but there's not much left to it because people avoided posting in it (for good reason). Sorry Dennis, might be better to delete the whole thread and start again! Next year it won't be allowed to happen.

Apologies to everyone who got upset using the 'report post' button - but you have to understand that moderators have lives too and we're not on-call 24/7.