F1 Melbourne P1 Fri 14 March 2014 11:00 AEDT ONE HD

[ianB (Ian)]

I hate the new changes to F1, and the sound of those engines are terrible, bring back F1 1990's style.

[The_bluester (Paul)]

The sound is certainly not what it was, but then I said the same thing when the V10 engines made way for the just dropped V8 ones. I think it will be gotten used to. The technological side of it I certainly see more appeal in. They are finally developing things again which could have real world application (Like taking power off the turbo electrically to regulate boost instead of a wastegate, with the ability to feed it back in again to spool them up and cut lag)

It has just popped up that Ricciardo is under investigation for pipping the maximum allowed fuel flow rate (By a margin which has not been disclosed) If they strip the podium off him the stewards probably want to get to Tulla quick smart and out of AU. And it could easily be a decision which could impact attendances next year. Who knows how much the flow rate was allegedly pipped by, but you would have to imagine it was small as it was supposedly consistent, suggesting that the team reckoned they were in the right of it throughout the race. The FIA have an independent flow rate sensor on the cars to the one/s the teams use.

[Larryp (Laurie)]

Just heard on the late news that Ricciardo has been disqualified, and Red Bull are appealing the decision.

[gary]

Originally Posted by Larryp

Just heard on the late news that Ricciardo has been disqualified, and Red Bull are appealing the decision.

That's terrible news.

[AstroJunk (Jonathan)]

As Ron has already alluded to, fuel management hampered last years racing and will destroy this years. Sorry Ricciardo, dark forces are contriving to demolish F1, but at least you had your time on the podium!

The demise of F1 was further underlined by the brilliant race events earlier in the day, no wonder Webber was looking happy...

[AndrewJ]

The technological side of it I certainly see more appeal in.

Its going a bit too far in many areas.
Ie just give em 100Kg of fuel and DRS and then let em use it whenever they want. Up to them if they finish or crash or allow someone to overtake.
All this fiddling on the edges, resulting in a disqualification like this
will just detract from what already ended up another boring game of
follow the leader.
The first few laps were OK, but after that, meh, same old same old.
Gimme the celebrity "race" or V8s any day

Andrew

[gary]

Originally Posted by BBC

But Red Bull boss Christian Horner insisted the team had complied with the regulations, adding that the fuel sensors have caused problems since their introduction.

"I'm extremely disappointed, quite surprised and we will of course appeal," said Horner.

"Hopefully through the appeal process, it will be clear the car has conformed at all times with the regulations and we have complied with technical regulations.

“Since their introduction, there have been discrepancies and the sensors have been unreliable”

"We could see a significant discrepancy with what the sensor was reading and what our fuel flow was stated as - that's where there's a difference of opinion.

"These fuel-flow sensors, which have been fitted by the FIA to measure fuel, have proved problematic.

"Since their introduction, there have been discrepancies and the sensors have been unreliable."

Horner said they had an issue with the sensor "through Friday practice" and were given a replacement that "failed during qualifying".

"We were asked to put the one we used on Friday back on the car and apply an offset," he said.

"We could see a significant discrepancy with what the sensor was reading and what our fuel flow was stated as. We didn't feel it was correct."

Story here -
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/formula1/26601418

[The_bluester (Paul)]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

Its going a bit too far in many areas.
Ie just give em 100Kg of fuel and DRS and then let em use it whenever they want. Up to them if they finish or crash or allow someone to overtake.
All this fiddling on the edges, resulting in a disqualification like this
will just detract from what already ended up another boring game of
follow the leader.
The first few laps were OK, but after that, meh, same old same old.
Gimme the celebrity "race" or V8s any day

Andrew

The fuel flow limit is not something I see as the technological aspect of the sport, though I can see why they have done it, to limit outright power, the bowfins I a sure will win some of it back. One obvious result was that while the safety car was out, the were running so lean that many cars were backfiring and crackling from unstable combustion.

Regards Ricciardo, wonder if the stewards announced that from the departure lounge at tulla. Going to be interesting where that goes, sounds very much as though they are prepared to consider their own sensor the definitive item (even though they supplied a replacement due to problems, which failed) and render a car uncompetitive if required to prove a point.

I agree with red bulls approach in one way, they might get the result to stand if they can now prove the sensor was faulty but if they meekly complied then took the FIA to task after the race, getting swamped for lack of power in the mean time, they can not prove where they would otherwise have finished. A better risk for them to be arguing against disqualification than getting a couple of points and thinking it should have been a podium.

Also better IMO if the flow sensors are suspect for them to be challenged now and with a high profile case than for gripes against them to become background noise over weeks and months and for them to perhaps influence the championship outcome.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Paul

The fuel flow limit is not something I see as the technological aspect of the sport,

Its technology "imposed on the participants" that by not working ( or being disputed in its implementation ), has affected the race result.
Give em 100kg of fuel and let em go at it.

If they blow up their engine etc, thats their problem.
If they run out of fuel early, thats their problem.
Even with the flow limiter, so many cars were losing it due to too much torque that it wasnt funny, so restricting power is not really viable as a reason.
If they really want to do that, use smaller engines again.

Andrew

[The_bluester (Paul)]

The tech that I am talking about as useful and a step forward is the energy recovery off the turbo. What a useful thing for road cars to be able to harvest power off the turbine to store for use in a hybrid drive setup, or to spool up the turbo quickly.

I do miss the sound but it was at least interesting to hear all sorts of other noises that have been drowned out by exhaust noise for the last couple of decades. And yes, the cars getting all squirmy through over doing the grip with torque was more interesting to watch than in past years.

[AndrewJ]

Gday Paul

Fully agree that the teams developing these new technologies is great,
and many spinoffs may come out of it.
The engineering/design aspects are amazing, but it can all be checked off and approved pre racing.
Its just when silly/petty regulations based on technology gone overboard
( ie my meter is better than your meter )
can affect the result, i reckon some of it is just not reqd.
Let em race using whatever they have.
First across the line wins

Andrew

[The_bluester (Paul)]

Unfortunately they will loose a lot of people over it and it is just silly. All you have to do is look at facebook and you can see that loads of people can not distinguish the difference between 100kg of fuel for the race distance which will take nearly two hours to complete and a fuel flow limit of 100kg/h.

I can see why they have the fuel flow limit, despite what you and I would love to see, they don't want to see 1400HP banzai engines in quali or for overtaking in race and max fuel flow is a pretty rigid way of achieving that, but it remains to be seen if they can get the meters working well enough to lay down a limit and enforce it rigidly, they were talking about absolute zero tolerance before the race with the penalty for using 100.1kg/h being the same as 120kg/h. Assuming that FIA delegates oversee the race fuel quantity filled (And they should) then it should be pretty easy to confirm or blow away the DQ.

"You started with 110kg of fuel as confirmed by our delegate, by our fuel flow metering you exceeded the max flow of 100kg/h on numerous occasions. By our fuel flow records you should have used 98kg of fuel in total leaving 12kg at race end however post race scrutineering reveals that you had 14kg of fuel remaining, due to this discrepancy no action will be taken"

[Exfso (Peter)]

Andrew, I agree 100% They have had their fuel quota cut to 100kg for the race, how they handle that should be up the the team, not the administrators, who are obviously losing the plot well and truly. With fuel management there are always debits and credits with mixtures and flow. If they are allowed only 100kg for a race, surely the teams should be the ones that control all the settings to give the best mixtures and flows to give the best power etc and still finish the distance on the allowable fuel without damaging the engines. Talk about over regulation

[AndrewJ]

Gday Paul

they don't want to see 1400HP banzai engines in quali or for overtaking in race

Why not
If the team wants to also risk going to the back for the start,
thats their choice during qualifying.
As to overtaking during the race, maybe if they werent limited,
the DRS wouldnt be such the fait accompli it is now for enabling
the person behind to overtake.
I said it before, i reckon DRS also should be allowed to be used
whenever a driver wants to.
Maybe limit it to 20 times per race, but again, at the drivers choice.
Make for much more interesting and random setups to overtake
or even catch up a bit if in the open by yourself.

Andrew

[Barrykgerdes]

It is an unusual rule.

If it is that important the fuel flow regulator must automatically limit the flow. The poor driver has enough to contend with when "putting his foot down" in a difficult maneuver without having to watch the fuel flow that he apparently does have control over.

Most of the race just looked like a procession of the qualifying order waiting for the leaders to break down or crash to give someone else a chance.

Maybe all the cars should be prepared by a set of mechanics so that they perform identically and then draw lots to see who drives which car.

Barry

[The_bluester (Paul)]

Strangely enough, from trackside it was actually a good and entertaining race through the midfield. Better than a whole lot of recent ones anyway, and with Bottas doing his thing as well it made for good watching. We were in the Waite stand so plenty of hip wriggling action, particularly later in the race as they tried to tame the torque as the tyres aged.

That is one change I really did like actually, I have disliked the tyres intensely for the last couple of seasons. Apart from anything else, how can it do anything but promote a procession when there is a thick carpet of marbles off line so no one is prepared to go there to try to find a way past the next car.

[sheeny (Al)]

I think the rule changes are a step in the right direction but didn't go far enough.

The exhaust note does sound like a couple of Moto3 bikes strapped together, but that aside, at least the drivers have to drive again... nice to have enough torque to scare 'em I say.

If they were serious, they would've bypassed this petrol hybrid business and gone straight to hydrogen fuel cell... but what would we do for an exhaust note then?

I think they compromised, because no-one would be interested in an F1 formula without an IC engine. No doubt they'll develop the hybrid system, but IMHO that's not where the future is, and the hydrogen fuel cell technology will languish while we mess about with this stuff.

(I did like the harsh scream of the old engines though).

Al.

[Larryp (Laurie)]

It seems very unfair to penalise Red Bull when the FIA's fuel sensor is not working accurately, they replace it and the new one also doesn't work properly, and the FIA tells them to put the original one back in and allow an offset for it.
Hardly Red Bull's fault!

[AndrewJ]

Gday Sheeny

but what would we do for an exhaust note then?

Sue of course
Heard it on the early news but didnt believe it
Quick Google found this

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/motor...317-hvjp0.html

First world problem, ie if it affects the "business model" fix it.
Maybe the cars will be forced to use some of the DRS energy
to power loudspeakers that emulate the old sound
whilst keeping the new engines
( Just think of the technical spinoffs we would get for the HiFi industry )

Andrew

[sheeny (Al)]

Originally Posted by AndrewJ

Gday Sheeny

Sue of course
Heard it on the early news but didnt believe it
Quick Google found this

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/motor...317-hvjp0.html

First world problem, ie if it affects the "business model" fix it.
Maybe the cars will be forced to use some of the DRS energy
to power loudspeakers that emulate the old sound
whilst keeping the new engines
( Just think of the technical spinoffs we would get for the HiFi industry )

Andrew

It doesn't surprise me, really.

The trouble is F1, is confused about what it is. Go back 30-40 years, and F1 was predominantly development and competition driven. These days they are more driven by entertainment in order to bring in the money for the development.

If F1 was serious about entertainment, they wouldn't mess with this hybrid business and they'd build a newer IC screamer. If they were serious about development, they'd jump hybrids to hydrogen fuel cell. They don't know what they want and end up in no man's land.

The same thing has been happening in MotoGP and the V8s...

Al.