Faith vs Science - a rant on why is the Universe so big?

[Doug]

if we are it and one could be certain no other form of life exsists, or has or will, I dont know what I would do.. I mean if that were the case the impact of that as being an absolute fact would be more than I could bear... I think I would probably toddle off to church and think it thru.

Alex, I think that is why faith is so hard to define. To others such as me, it makes no difference one way or the other. But that is a difference in type I think rather than a difference in quality or quantity.

cheers,
Doug

[xelasnave]

I have the answers Bert I have just forgoten the questions.
I have often thought the problem is for many there are no real answers for them. It would be only a small percentage of the human race that is educated well enough to consider matters in a logical rational sequence armed with a reasonable amount of scientific knowledge to even consider the alternatives to the culture they live within. AND sadly the proposition of raising the level of education world wide means the percentage will always remain low I would think. There are people who will and their decendants will always live in ingnorance..there are 200,000,000,000 people who cant not read on the planet.. that is a worry when you consider the implications.
I hate it when there is cloud at the dark end of the month.
alex

[xelasnave]

sorry Doug missed your post. Thanks for your qualification.
alex

[asimov (John)]

I'll pray for clear skies for you lot I reckon!

[xelasnave]

Only one kiddy left, have eaten more lollies than I should, and looking at cocktail frankfurts for dinner, I will be able to watch the news shortly that should be relaxing and put my mind at ease.
alex

[mickoking]

Everything is faith we all percieve the Universe differently, Who is correct?

[xelasnave]

Now that is deep as correct is a difficult thing to define, but whatever gives a species the greatest chance of survival would be the most correct and whatever gives the species less chance of survival is less correct. And is being correct important if it confuses others.
Other than cloud cover it is probably best explained by reference to that unfortunate observation by a well know figure at a less known venue which goes "when the Sun sets in the saucer of milk the cat will sing to the cuckoo clock" that sums it up really.
alex

[RB (Andrew)]

Has everyone had enough now?
I've been following this thread and it's getting a little

I'm on the verge of locking it.
I don't want it to turn into personal attacks and/or full of spam.

[xelasnave]

Hi Andrew I think there is always opportunity for the things you suggest but I did not see them coming if they can be found in this thread. I think Bert was only having a dig at me not anyone else in an offensive way if you refer to that. And maybe my cat thing could cause someone to call me something, but could I blame them, no I invited it.
You move the clouds we will become less bored.
alex

[RB (Andrew)]

I understand alex, I'm just as bored as everyone else, with the weather the way it is.
But as a moderator I have to read all this stuff (I can't ignore it) and make sure it doesn't lead to things that we've already seen here before.
I think you can understand my position.

[mickoking]

Everything seems fairly good natured to me

[avandonk]

I think the point I was trying to make was that we as humans have survived by having some sort of value system that means you put others before yourself. That means not a free for all, or winner takes the lot. This inherent altruism has generally been ignored by the powerful sociopathic dare I say phsycopathic people in the past and will happen in the future as it is happening now.
Organised Religion has served us well and badly in the past. We all live in the paradigm of our current age. It is up to us to separate superstition from science. Science is like any belief system it can be used for good and for evil. The worst part is defining good and evil depends on which side you are on and who is doing what and to whom.

My biggest fear is just as we humans are starting to really understand how the Universe works, powerful forces are trying to cloud these new understandings with fundamentalist assertions with no real testable evidence.

My last word on this topic. It is in the interests of the rich and powerful to keep the majority of the rest of us ignorant. They then can dismiss any highly educated individual or group with some derogatory label such as latte sippers.
I prefer to to point the finger at the billionaire classes, and if you do it is 'envy'. The wealth they have has been plundered from all of us by abusing the system that they control.
Our only defense as ordinary people is knowledge and eternal vigilance and dealing with your fellow humanity as you would like to be treated.

Bert

[RB (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by avandonk

......Our only defense as ordinary people is knowledge and eternal vigilance and dealing with your fellow humanity as you would like to be treated.

Bert

That was a point I was trying to make.
None of us like to be provoked.
We have a wide mix of belief systems on this forum and we've seen this sort of discussion end up you know where.
That's why the TOS expressly says we should avoid this sort of provocation.
We've lost other members who were quite harshly attacked verbally in the past for their beliefs (and it is their right to hold those beliefs).
I did not want to see a repeat of this.

If we do stick to the motto of:

"Treat others as you would like to be treated yourselves" then there's no problem.

But I don't like seeing people make certain statements that are sure to provok. It will only serve to inflame and hurt everyone involved.

As you know I have the utmost respect for all of you.

[asimov (John)]

Lock the damn thing down IMO.

[Lester]

Its nice to be nice and Awful to be awful.

[xelasnave]

I do not wish to "provoke" anyone, I do not wish to offend anyone. For there to be a crime there must be a guilty act and, more importantly a guilty mind.. without the guilty mind the act is nuetral. So if you are offended by me, I say that it is not my intention. If any of my statements of the facts as I see them (number of gallaxies, planets and chances of life probability based) cause provocation maybe I should avoid relating scientific information that comes my way. But sooner or later one must accept the fact that we live in a place bigger than humans can comprehend. I accept as a fact I do not know everything and that things may be far different to my beliefs of only a year ago. Further if I attack there will be no doubt that I am in that mode..but you will never see me in that mode.
Personally I enjoyed this thread because it is wonderful to gain insite into areas of faith... considered faith by inteligent people..I find that very interesting,particularly if you do not live that way.. I am genuinely curious not seeking victims for destruction.
Burt is so on the money it would surprise me if anyone could be offended with his thoughts. He recognises the reality of our society and the ways of the world, and I have no doubt that if all met life with such meaningful consideration we would all progress to a higher level of humanity.
Fundamentalism is my enemy and should be the enemy of all humans if we are to move into a more enlightened future.
AND Andrew I can understand your position if you have had the problems which you refer to...I hope it was not the intelligent design thing... but even there my view was let it be in the schools just not as a science class.. that surely is respecting anothers belief and making room for it where others would not.
alex
alex

[avandonk]

I am truly humbled xelasnave if you think I have some insight. I feel a bit like the Bishop who was proud of his book on Humility.

Here is a brief history of the Universe as best we know it now according to out 'best' scientific endeavours.

Before time zero : we don't know. there was nowhere and nowhen
A few nanoseconds after
:pure energy and the four fundamental forces were
equivalent?

: inflation who needs the speed of light as a restriction

: after 300k years after expansion particles form mainly
Hydrogen and Helium and a bit of Lithium.
: Early massive stars and early galaxies
:this leads to some heavier Elements
: this cycle is repeated many times
: Eons pass 13.7 GY
: We are here!

In 1920 there was just the Milky Way
In the thirties Edwin Hubble saw far further and then there were more Galaxies and the putative expansion of the Universe.
In 1948 Fred Hoyle published his paper on Nucleosynthesis of Heavier Elements in Stars. It was then recognized that any Element with an atomic wieght higher than Iron 53 could only be produced in a Supernova!
The last bits all happened in my lifetime. We are just starting to know and partially inderstand.

That is why the Universe is as big as it seems to be. OK is most probably more enigmatic than we can even comprehend.
Hope this is clear

Bert

[g__day (Matthew)]

This is not an argument you can win, it's simply a point of view. The thread traces the interesting dance around each other that science and faith do when it comes to pondering why are we here and is their a purpose to our existence as an intelligent species. The thread also focuses on some interesting perspectives that arise when pondering astronomy or cosmology.

With faith and $2.50 you can buy a meat pie so the saying goes. Purpose is a function of higher intelligence, so saying our provident existence gives the universe a purpose, imples to us! Its our purpose and alah Descartes it exists because we do. The Universe is still wonderous with or without us, or any higher intelligence life forms. But it is from a science outlook incredibly improbably we exist at all, so its either a fluke or there is a purpose that has relevance to us!

I wonder which it is and what it is if its not a fluke!

[Lester]

The answer is out there if you want to see it. But if you have any doubt in your mind then you will not see it even if it touched you. That is how faith works. Prity simple really.

[g__day (Matthew)]

Ouch! That's a hard definition of faith when you follow the reasoning trail it supports; if you need to believe in something badly enough whatever comes along when you most need it and feel like accepting it shapes your world view, whether its rational or not?

Somehow I don't think the statement you were trying to express should be that open ended. Mind you accepting it helps explain why we have over 5,000 active faith systems in the world today; all pretty convinced their world view is the only right one. Doesn't that leave everyone feeling all the more comforted to know that!

I think faith has to operate in the areas science can't go. Faith and science don't play well in each others domain. Science can't give you a motivation behind god and god's actions; science only answers what where the mechanics of god's actions. Give you an example of faith colliding badly with science. Noah and the rain. Most folk picking on the Bible ponder where'd all the water come from and go. Simple observation, instead ask what it weighed, how far it was displaced in 40 days and how much energy that would have expended. Anwser to the energy question: same force as the Nagaski bomb, for every square kilometer of the Earth's surface, every 14 seconds for 40 days!

That's a more then a smidgeon of energy to move that much water in that time period. An energy signature like that should leave some lasting evidence somewhere. And the tribes that were living 300 miles to the South with an unbroken history didn't record any major storms at all around the decade when the global flood occured.

So you have to take it that the scribes did their best, regardless if you take the mainstream bible or one with the extra prophets that some major religions like and some prune, but folks were faliable and limited, now and then!