Are our reactions unscientific? - Page 2

Argonavis (William) · #21 02-07-2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mickoking

I don't give Astrology any creedence but I don't have any problems if people believe or have faith in it. If people, scientific materialists if you like get annoyed by Astrology thats fine too but individuals are entitled to believe in what they do.

Actually I do. Maybe that makes me a "scientific materialist".

I was driving on the inner-city-bypass yesterday and I was astounded by a sight I had seen many times before. Against the backdrop of a deep clear blue sky that characterises a Brisbane winter, I saw these magnificent buildings rising 20 and 30 stories high. It was of course the CBD and the many skyscrapers that have been build there. These are as great if not greater an achievement of our culture and civilisation than any pyramid or tomb. They may be familiar, but they are astounding.

They were not build by people who "believe in anything". They, and all of our material culture, is built on physical laws and scientific and engineering accomplishments. The fact that this is not reflected in our social culture I find a little tragic. Does the Women's Weekly have a science and technology column? No? What does this say? Why do people go home and pick up their magic wand and wave it and their magic screen to watch mindless drivel? People are this disconnected from understanding how their TV remote operates their TV. They are this ignorant of the world around them. No wonder people will believe just about anything. No wonder scientists struggle to find funding. I sometimes wonder how our species emerged from living in caves. The human mind is a wonderful thing - it can imagine a bridge or building and go out and build it or it can invent drivel (like eugenitics) and go out and mass murder. I think Volans has mission impossible in front of him.

And no, our social culture does not approve of us "believeing in anything" - I think the neighbours would look askance at me if I practiced cannibilism over my backyard BBQ.

Dennis · #22 02-07-2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volans

This might be sailing a touch close to the wind for some, but I do believe that you can very broadly categorize human personalities into 12 generalised types. You can label these types in whatever way you see fit, 1, A, Leo, Red, Eucalyptus grandis, Zinc, whatever you want.
>snip
Peter.

That reminds me of some research done by Sheldon in the 1940’s and used by the American military to categorise personnel intake.

It seems he discovered or defined three distinct categories of human bodies:
the endomorph, characterized by a preponderance of bodyfat;
the mesomorph, marked by a well-developed musculature; and,
the ectomorph, distinguished by a lack of either much fat or muscle tissue.

From these I understand he also developed associated temperaments aligned to these body types, or soma types.

If I remember correctly, it was along the lines of Feeling, Doing and Thinking. Carl Gustav Jung’s classification of introvert and extravert also spring to mind. So, we now appear to have a modern language that seeks to describe human behaviour based upon physical characteristics.

Just wondering if the language of astrology began in this way?

Cheers

Dennis

xelasnave · #23 02-07-2006, 04:20 PM

"I tell them that Neil Armstrong has recently passed away and that because America saw him as a national hero, they had him stuffed and dressed in his moonwalk suit and we have him on loan from NASA for 6 months."
That is terrible

Man I can see the faces I really can

I am going to use that one...
I think I may print some tickets and start selling them.
alex

xelasnave · #24 02-07-2006, 04:21 PM

cant stop
alex

avandonk · #25 02-07-2006, 04:30 PM

I prefer to take apart some watches and lenses and add nuts and bolts shake all the bits in a big crystal jar and then pour the contents onto a large map. From the resultant arrangement I can predict the future in love,money,luck,health and anything else you could care to name.
This is a modern version of the Roman's chicken entrails.

This method is as valid as any other method not based on real testable and hence predictive science. That is of no use whatsoever!

Bert

janoskiss (Steve H) · #26 02-07-2006, 04:34 PM

... the Neil Armstrong thing ...

xelasnave · #27 02-07-2006, 05:08 PM

I have recovered I will now question myself what it was that set me off. But I went on a cave tour recently and simply saw all those "faces" in dim lite nodding with understanding and interested looks upon their faces, the guide could have said a deposit was laid 9-37 am two million years ago and they would have nodded

Argon Avis I sence your frustration with "the masses" and on a side note
I think it is sad that when out today I realised I forgot to see how the launch went... the most exciting thing on the car radio was something about big brother. We are at a point in space exploration of possibly the highest significance in the history of space history (I mean problems for the mission spell doom ) I could not believe... I dont know if I just kept missing news or it simply was not on???
On the Moon thing its seems there is a corralation with activity at least around the township of Drake. The subject came up and those present started to relate stories of the good old days when they used have Full Moon Paries from some of the yarns I heard today the urban myth re Full Moon could have started right there

.
You make perfect sence to me.
alex

mickoking · #28 02-07-2006, 05:51 PM

Neil Armstrong..........you guys are funny

Gargoyle_Steve (Steve) · #29 03-07-2006, 01:18 AM

As was briefly mentioned in a previous post there is a reason to what "sign" is said to be the major influece when you are born, and it has very little to do with where the actual constellations were at the time of your birth, obviously, since every constellation passes overhead at some time during a single day. To allocate a period of approx 30 days to being under the influene of a single constellation seems ludicrous to me.

It so happened that I was born around lunchtime (12:26 I believe) in mid July (yes, my birthday is a little over a week away .... and yes I like big shiny things for presents

) and so I am designated as being born under Cancer. If I make an assumption for a moment and say it was perhaps actually the constellation of Taurus that was directly over my birth (I'll check the Starry Night software later and see) then someone born later in the afternoon would have had Cancer directly overhead when they were born, someone born later again may have had Sagitarius overhead, etc. Pretty obvious stuff really.
Now I wouldn't give even that system of astrology any credence, but it would at least make more sense to me than saying everyone born for the next 30 days is such-and-such.

Ok ..... now, I have to say that desite my non-belief in astrology, I do have one interesting fact I need to mention to be completely honest. About 3-4 years ago I began talking to a lovely woman whom I met via the net. She did not know me previously, we had no friends in common, we lived an hour apart from each other, etc - no way she could have known me or anything about me in other words.

I found out very quickly that she was a great believer in astrology, in fact she had been studying it full time for 2 years (I didn't even know that was possible) and she was going to become a "professional astrologer". She asked if I knew the precise time and place of my birth, which I did quite accurately, and so she spent the following 2-3 days "drawing my charts".

Being somewhat sceptical I was VERY careful not to tell her to much about myself, my upbringing, my likes and dislikes, etc. I have seen people "read" other people and pretend to be psychic, etc, and I was not making this easy for her.

During a phone call a day or so after she had finished (she could not see my face and read reactions, etc) I sat silently listening while she proceeded to tell me a vast and unnerving amount of things about myself: emotional traits, family relationships, employment tendencies, previous romantic endeavours, educational factors, etc - you name it, it was pretty much there.

I want to make this clear: she was 100% accurate and correct in every way with every single thing that she said, it was all pretty damn specific, and she apparently knew things that I would say even my best friends of 20+ years did not know about me. Some very deep and personal stuff, to the point of being almost embarassing to discuss.

I thought long and hard afterwards, and how she "knew" these things has always baffled me. There was one particular "behavioural trait", very VERY specific, that she could not possibly know I had, and she asked me if I had it (everything else she "told" me, not asked - I denied possessing this trait to see what she would say, and her reply was that the only other time she had ever seen "whatever" (from memory it was something like Saturn rising in conjunction with something else at a very particular time) was in her brother in law or someone, and he had this trait also. I was left with the impression that she knew I was lying to her, she was so adamant and sincere.

So ..... end result : yes I am definitely the backyard scientist type for whom science and logic rule my mind and my life, and No I do not believe in astrology ..... yet, this woman REALLY freaked me out!

xelasnave · #30 03-07-2006, 08:41 AM

For goodness sake give me her contact details there is so much I need to know

alex

JimmyH155 · #31 03-07-2006, 11:14 AM

Everybody's talk reminds me of that classic Tony Hancock show - The Test pilot - he goes into the hangar, climbs in and presses the wrong button. Off goes the plane into orbit, when he hears a knocking noise from outside and discovers the maintenance technician who was working on the plane... "'Ello, can I come in? I was reading in the stars this morning that this is my lucky day!" To which Tony Hancock replies "If we keep going up at this rate, you'll be able to tell them they are wrong!"
Sorry, I digressed.......

ving (David) · #32 03-07-2006, 12:08 PM

its codwallop... IMO.

People (yes i am generalising here so obviously not everyone) need something to believe in. They cant accept that day to day life in not controlled but some huge outside force and so they create a means by which to explian why this happen the way they do... if you were born in march you are sad today cause the moon is up uranus, etc. I place astrology in much the same boat as any religion, and infact if you look at it they are not too dissimilar are they? they all look for some external force to explain how things happen.

er... i'll just lower my horned head, tuck my spiked tail between my goat-like legs and go and sit facing the corner now

avandonk · #33 03-07-2006, 01:40 PM

Just google 'cold reading'. This is the method all so called fortune tellers, psychics, and other con merchants use.

This can be done on the radio and was done by a scientist to try and show how easy it was. All the listeners thought he had the 'gift' even after he told them how he was doing it.

Bert

josh (Luke) · #34 03-07-2006, 03:39 PM

Hey all, im back. Far out! im impressed with the posts on this one. I think all of you have made some very good points.
The argument about people needing to feel they know or are in control is a good one. But then that driving force that for so many centuries has had us tied up with relegion has been turned towards science, now science for the mass may have just become a religion substitue ie promises to have the abitliy to come up with all the answers and gives us a creation story and an end, therefore leaving us feeling all safe and secure again!.good food for thought.
You know i was just thinking and alot of people overlook the most powerful body in the heavens out there that has direct and plainly obsevable affects on humans, that body being the sun. There are just the simple things like the way it strongly affects human behaviour ie sunny/happy/play

, Cloudy/moody/no play

but what im interested in is the less obvious things that may be screwing with us like sunspots, solar flares, radiation and.. what are those things that come from the sun that they measure under ground..with the big doo-dad?
Anyway i feel science and spirituality may not be able give us the fullest possible understanding of the universe. Theres nothing else is there or does quantum physics play in the middle ground?

Maybe we need a blend of the two..nah they dont seem to get on that well

mickoking · #35 03-07-2006, 03:59 PM

Good summary Josh

xelasnave · #36 03-07-2006, 05:01 PM

I think a thread on the reasons folk need belief systems would be interesting, be it via religion, pagan or scientific few are without something..except me I believe in everything and all at once

.
In any event Josh thanks from me for raising it I got a real kick out of the Stuffed Armstrong thing

as I am sure many would have

.
alex

Argonavis (William) · #37 03-07-2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gargoyle_Steve

So ..... end result : yes I am definitely the backyard scientist type for whom science and logic rule my mind and my life, and No I do not believe in astrology ..... yet, this woman REALLY freaked me out!

This sounds an interesting and powerful experience Steve. I am sure that it makes you wonder. But, as I pointed out previously, there are been hundreds of studies, all finding no correlations. I think one newspaper journalist had it right when they said most of us are so narcisstic that we really don't believe we have anything in common with the rest of the human race.

Truth is, we all share the same emotional template and often many of our character traits do cluster, to make us fairly predictable in our reactions and experiences. It is really surprising how similar we all are. Psychics and clairvoyants know this, and even with email and phone contact we can pick up a great deal about someone. Most of us can size people us with a 30 second contact, and we do.

We are social animals and are quite good at reading other people. It is one of our foremost evolutionary adaptions that makes us human. If you study astrology for 2 years full time what you are probably really studying is human beings and their personalities and character traits, nothing to do with the sky.

Humans are very predictable, and often psychics will throw a lot at you until they get a hit. You remember the hit because it has emotional resonance, you forget the inaccurate stuff, or interpret it differently.

When people say I am a Scorpio, it means that when I was born, the Sun was in the zodiac sign of Scorpio. The Sun spends a month in each sign. The signs are defined as successive 30 degree zones along the ecliptic, starting from the vernal equinox. Classical astrology gets more complex than this, with houses defined in relation to the horizon, and the position of the Sun, Moon and planets in the houses and signs having significant at the time of birth (why not the time of conception?), and the angles (trines, conjunctions etc) between the Sun, Moon and planets also have supposed significant bearing on our personalities and future. Much of this is sufficiently vague and meaningless to allow people to read whatever in this stuff.

My now ex-wife once somehow persuaded me to go to a tarot card reader as he was "so accurate - even predicted I had 3 kids". I went with my poker face and he got nothing right. Except that "I was coming into money". Well that happens every week, on Monday.

The problem is, some people flap without realising the information that they are giving away.

Enough flapping from me.

Mr Bob · #38 03-07-2006, 08:04 PM

Dunno if its astrology or not but I hunt, fish and garden by the moon. I have converted a couple of friends and they can see results based on the postion / phases of it.

Starkler (Geoff) · #39 03-07-2006, 08:17 PM

Some excellent posts in this thread, but IMO to have a thread on the "reasons folk need belief systems " could be dangerous ground, and potentially offensive to those who follow a religion.

xelasnave · #40 03-07-2006, 09:24 PM

True it would be difficult avoiding that in retrospect. I dont wish to offend anyone more than I do already.. unintentionally of course... and I would like to think no one here would wish that so lets drop it in the bad idea basket
alex