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  #21  
Old 04-03-2013, 11:34 AM
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Thanks Bert for this - MAGICAL data - I am an avid convert of yur techniques.

Anyway, my humble attempt at it (medium JPEG). Could have gone for the really nebulous look, but I liked it contrasty
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  #22  
Old 04-03-2013, 04:16 PM
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And my attempt with the colour narrowband overlaid over the base greyscale, and then tweaked around.

I know it can be stretched further, but it starts to blow out too much - will try some alternate layering
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  #23  
Old 04-03-2013, 05:15 PM
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No Mike all done with PS3 extended with levels and curves with a little masking. No sharpening or Pixinsight magic. Too Vegas for you?
It's such great data which has been a real eye opener to process.
Allan
To Vegas for moi?? never...apart from needing some Magenta of course

I've just never seen the ECN looking so..?..different...? The outer neb is distinct splodges, looks cool but this can't be real and must surely be a processing artefact?

Mike
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  #24  
Old 04-03-2013, 06:00 PM
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Just for those that like the faint clouds...


I have never tried Hubble-esque style before - kind of like it Seeing I have a CCD now, got to try me some narrowband, IF the OSC CCD will allow MUCH of it (SXVR-M25c) - probably not much I guess?
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  #25  
Old 04-03-2013, 06:38 PM
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Beautiful work Bert. Here's my take on your original image - I hope you don't mind. First is a starless Eta, second is the nebula as it might look unlit and opaque. Both were done using a star mask in StarTools.

Thanks for letting us have a go

Cheers,

Tom
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  #26  
Old 04-03-2013, 06:50 PM
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I like Marc's and Marcus's versions. Allans is impactful but I agree with Mike, it has introduced processing artifacts that aren't real. Still, a vivid presentation.

The image really has a lot of depth. Nice one Bert.

Greg.
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  #27  
Old 05-03-2013, 07:40 AM
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As a relative newcomer to astrophotography I have found this exercise both interesting and informative, so firstly a big thanks to Bert for initiating this exercise!

The first thing that struck me was the wide variety of results that have been achieved which just goes to highlight that there is indeed no correct result in astrophotography, there are only ever personal preferences. We've got images that go from very contrasty which highlight the broader nebulaic (I think I've just made this word up!) structure through to those images which highlight the very faintest of gas. From what I can see, my image sits somewhere in the middle of the spectrum, neither fully in one camp or the other!

Personally, I think my image processing has been influenced by my work processing seismic data - I tend to follow a similar processing sequence and look for similar outcomes from the processes. In the very beginning I tried to emulate what I saw on this forum, trying to match the likes of Marcus, Mike and Greg. But the conditions that I shoot in coupled with my gear were never going to allow this, let alone my experience and technique.

However, over the last few weeks of rainy weather, I've had plenty of time to sit down and work on my processing techniques as the several repros I've posted will attest. So when Bert's noise free data came along I jumped at the opportunity to see what I could do, to see how I fared in the big league. And although there are a few things I think I need to work on, overall I'm happy with how mine compared to others.

So once again thank you Bert for posting the data and the challenge, and thank you to everyone for having a go. This one thread has given me a great benchmark for me to measure my progress through this wonderful passion.

OK, back to processing seismic data before the boss sees me on IIS!!

Cheers,
Mario

PS Yes, I am at work at 6:40am - rush job!!!

Last edited by cybereye; 05-03-2013 at 08:14 AM.
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  #28  
Old 05-03-2013, 09:12 AM
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Absolutely exquisite data Bert - I can't believe the fidelity and low (non-existent) noise!
My quicky with StarTools.
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  #29  
Old 05-03-2013, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by irwjager View Post
Absolutely exquisite data Bert - I can't believe the fidelity and low (non-existent) noise!
My quicky with StarTools.

Now that IS interesting and different processing. Kind of a low contrast HDR effect here. Is that a script in StarTools?
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  #30  
Old 05-03-2013, 11:46 AM
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Now that IS interesting and different processing. Kind of a low contrast HDR effect here. Is that a script in StarTools?
It's a combination of Deconvolution (the resolution and stellar SNR of this data is wasted otherwise!), automated scene-based global stretching (manual curves are sooo 90s ), local histogram optimisation and equalisation, topped off with some inter-scale aware wavelet sharpening of the larger structures. Not more than 5 minutes work.

I'm not a fan of too heavy-handed local dynamic range optimisation (e.g. the infamous 'flat' PixInsight look that destroys large scale detail/depth), so your description of "a low contrast HDR effect" is spot-on!

Happy to explain each step/algorithm in detail!

Cheers,
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  #31  
Old 05-03-2013, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by irwjager View Post
It's a combination of Deconvolution (the resolution and stellar SNR of this data is wasted otherwise!), automated scene-based global stretching (manual curves are sooo 90s ), local histogram optimisation and equalisation, topped off with some inter-scale aware wavelet sharpening of the larger structures. Not more than 5 minutes work.

I'm not a fan of too heavy-handed local dynamic range optimisation (e.g. the infamous 'flat' PixInsight look that destroys large scale detail/depth), so your description of "a low contrast HDR effect" is spot-on!

Happy to explain each step/algorithm in detail!

Cheers,

So if I understand correctly Ivo you are doing for deep sky images what the planetary imagers are doing with their low contrast data?

I have a stack of 3nm NII and HA data of 27x16 minutes ie 7.2 hours. The best 80% of 34 frames. I would be very grateful if you could try this data with your methods.

Here is the compressed fit 41MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.co...I+HA_80pc_.zip

I collected the HA last night so it is hot off the press.

Bert

Last edited by avandonk; 05-03-2013 at 12:49 PM.
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  #32  
Old 05-03-2013, 01:03 PM
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Bert has kindly hosted a link to a larger version of my attempt.
http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.co..._03/Allan1.jpg
Enjoy the artifacts.
Allan
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  #33  
Old 05-03-2013, 01:17 PM
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marc4darkskies (Marcus)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by irwjager View Post
It's a combination of Deconvolution (the resolution and stellar SNR of this data is wasted otherwise!), automated scene-based global stretching (manual curves are sooo 90s ), local histogram optimisation and equalisation, topped off with some inter-scale aware wavelet sharpening of the larger structures. Not more than 5 minutes work.

I'm not a fan of too heavy-handed local dynamic range optimisation (e.g. the infamous 'flat' PixInsight look that destroys large scale detail/depth), so your description of "a low contrast HDR effect" is spot-on!

Happy to explain each step/algorithm in detail!

Cheers,
Holy cow Ivo! You're a fan of sharpening though!! Granted this is probably a quick & dirty demo, but I'd be careful deconvolving this data. The stellar profiles don't need to be reduced IMO. In fact, I'm noticing halos around stars. On top of that you've also done wavelet! Consequently it has a classic overcooked look that zooming in doesn't appear to mitigate.

I'm also noticing that you've rendered almost invisible (and maybe even clipped?) the faint extents of nebulosity that are screaming out to be revealed in this wonderful data.

All of the techniques you mention may be applicable to this image but, and notwithstanding personal taste, they need to be done in a selective and controlled way to maintain some kind of natural look.

Cheers, Marcus
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  #34  
Old 05-03-2013, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by marc4darkskies View Post
Holy cow Ivo! You're a fan of sharpening though!! Granted this is probably a quick & dirty demo, but I'd be careful deconvolving this data. The stellar profiles don't need to be reduced IMO. In fact, I'm noticing halos around stars. On top of that you've also done wavelet! Consequently it has a classic overcooked look that zooming in doesn't appear to mitigate.

I'm also noticing that you've rendered almost invisible (and maybe even clipped?) the faint extents of nebulosity that are screaming out to be revealed in this wonderful data.

All of the techniques you mention may be applicable to this image but, and notwithstanding personal taste, they need to be done in a selective and controlled way to maintain some kind of natural look.


Cheers, Marcus

Shush he may do better with better data!

His method is simply enhancing tiny local contrast in nebulosity (I think). This inevitably leads to loss of very faint nebulosity. His algorithm most probably thinks that the really faint stuff is noise!

See I am an expert already!

Bert
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  #35  
Old 05-03-2013, 04:52 PM
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So if I understand correctly Ivo you are doing for deep sky images what the planetary imagers are doing with their low contrast data?
Nothing special about what the planetary imager guys do Bert! It's all just as applicable to Deep Sky Images.
Quote:
I have a stack of 3nm NII and HA data of 27x16 minutes ie 7.2 hours. The best 80% of 34 frames. I would be very grateful if you could try this data with your methods.

Here is the compressed fit 41MB

http://d1355990.i49.quadrahosting.co...I+HA_80pc_.zip

I collected the HA last night so it is hot off the press.

Bert
Your data is such a pleasure to work with Bert!
Here is a version processed in much the same way as the other image (with a better star mask this time).
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  #36  
Old 05-03-2013, 05:18 PM
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Holy cow Ivo! You're a fan of sharpening though!! Granted this is probably a quick & dirty demo, but I'd be careful deconvolving this data. The stellar profiles don't need to be reduced IMO.
I disagree - this data at this resolution is very, very soft, as is to be expected. Deconvolution in this particular image is able to recover a good bit of real data. As a matter of fact, as a validation of the decision to deconvolve, one can now make out diffraction patterns around the brighter stars.
Surely you're not going to seriously argue that this;
http://startools.org/download/Tutori...eforeDecon.jpg

is better than this?

http://startools.org/download/Tutori...AfterDecon.jpg
Quote:
In fact, I'm noticing halos around stars.
Yes, you are absolutely correct. I didn't take the time to create a proper star mask for the de-ringing (I just used a quick auto mask), leaving some stars unprotected (for example Eta Carina is fine, but some other smaller ones didn't make it in my mask ). I tried to do better (time allowing) in the second data set Bert posted.
Quote:
On top of that you've also done wavelet! Consequently it has a classic overcooked look that zooming in doesn't appear to mitigate.
I don't think you understand what wavelet sharpening is or how it works?
I stated that I left the smaller scales alone and merely increased the prevalence of the larger structures (which the deconvolution cannot have touched). I fail to see how that automatically means an 'overcooked' image?

Maybe you don't like the local histogram equalisation or optimisation?
Overcooking, to me, means showing features that aren't there (artefacts) or hiding features that are there through the incorrect use of filters. What do you define as overcooking?
Quote:
I'm also noticing that you've rendered almost invisible (and maybe even clipped?) the faint extents of nebulosity that are screaming out to be revealed in this wonderful data.
Nope. By choice. But you're free to make a different choice. The automated scene (AutoDev) stretching routine comes up with the best possible curve by homing in on the curve that generates the maximum amount of detail for a specific scale. It guarantees that all detail of a specific size (I chose smallest) is maximally visible within the constraints of a global stretch. It allows you more artistic freedom in choosing what the important feature is in your image.
By the way, I challenge you to clip your data in StarTools (except when explicitly allow or in the Layer module) - you won't be able to do it
Quote:
All of the techniques you mention may be applicable to this image but, and notwithstanding personal taste, they need to be done in a selective and controlled way to maintain some kind of natural look.
No. Just, no. There is no 'natural' look in astrophotography and anyone who claims they know what it is is a fraud. Strong words, but I'm passionate about this.
Personally, I think you yourself could stand to gain quite bit with your images by getting 'with the program' so to speak, as I don't believe you are getting the most of your data with the tools available these days. If StarTools isn't your cup of tea, PixInsight is also a fantastic way to get more from your data than is possible with a generic application like Photoshop.

Ah image processing... Rogelio Bernal said it best when he said "There are as many schools of astrophotography as there are astrophotographers".

Cheers,
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  #37  
Old 05-03-2013, 05:48 PM
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Processing Wars

Good natured ones of course

This might rival that Climate Change thread

Mike
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  #38  
Old 05-03-2013, 05:54 PM
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Processing Wars

Good natured ones of course


As long as it furthers our wonderful hobby...
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  #39  
Old 05-03-2013, 05:58 PM
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As long as it furthers our wonderful hobby...
Of course, t'was a good natured comment from an up and coming comedian

Besides..ones processing technique has no affect on the planet in this case

Mike
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  #40  
Old 05-03-2013, 06:24 PM
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Besides..ones processing technique has no affect on the planet in this case
No need to be modest now; IMHO you yourself manage some pretty 'ground breaking' and 'earth shattering' stuff now and then...
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