Space Time and Gravity

[xelasnave]

If you are bored I have had a bit to say elsewhere but here is a "simple" statement I made to start it off there.. dont read all of it just the first post.
http://forums.astronomydaily.com/vie...er=asc&start=0
alex

[Starcrazzy]

exellent...no problem...Yes, i think we are on a similar page when it comes to the current parradigm of the cosmos, thats why i will entertain the idea of the earth being younger then 5000 years( i may not believe the theory, ) but i will entertain the idea, and certainly don't take any FACT for granted..It is crackpots that change paradigms, and intellectual discussion and debate can only serve to aid the crackpots in there articualtion and continuation of there proposed idea's..I love your energy pressure/gravity theory, and have enjoyed the p[laces it has taken my mind..lol...sometimes it only takes a simple statement to start the mind boggling and bouncing through some crazzy and whacky ideas..I too don't see a need for a day 1..that's not to say the evidance doesn't point to one, but i see no need for timeline to start anywhere or end anywhere...i would be more leaning towards a loop, or a circle, perhaps the big bang was the result of a big crunch, the big coming together of all the matter in the universe under its gravity and reaching a critical energy matter singularity and resulting in a massive explosion, and in time it may all happen again??mabye its happend countless times in the past and will keep happening exactly the same way in the future...we know nothing can be made or destroyed, only changed.... I will end with this bold statement...matter can not exist without time...my real passion is in the understanding of time and how it works..
chhers alex

[xelasnave]

Just as I find contemplating a "start" hard to accept an end is more difficult. Consider the implication of a big crunch.. the most distant photon is is wizzing thru space (almost reached "the fence between nothing and space" ) when the message arrives, big crunch time..does the photon slow to a walking pace, stop and finally start a return to the object it came from?? I doubt it personally and that would be an easy solution . Where are the sides in the big crunch? Does the fence between nothing and space remain in place or does nothing gather around whilst the Universe colapses to the size of a "mustard seed" . When you analyse nothing and its importance and necessity for some of these propositions to get up I think you may manage any suggestion as to what will go on inside the Universe but when it has become but a seed what will we call the stuff around it, can logic allow it to exsist even in speculation?
Time works one of two ways usually against us and usually it wins.

alex

[xelasnave]

At the risk sounding foolish,I have been reading yet more about this (space time, gravity gravitons etc etc) and ask is not "space time" a geometric expression? The key issue as far as gravity seems to be that it removes the requirement of force between objects and explains gravity as bodies following the course of the least resistence provided by space being curved near objects. I see no reason why radiation pressure could not indeed be the physical way objects affect each other and space time a system of geometry to "measure" and "quantify".The problem of making special relativity fit with quantum mechanics leaves the graviton in the same boat really as "gravity" rain. String theory seems to support the exsistence of a graviton.. and I add I have no idea about string theory and am simply relating a snippet from my reading.
The graviton "they" look for comes from the quantum approach and they talk about it as "interacting" with other particles. It is discrete (not secretive but a "seperate" particle) with a spin 2 and I dont understand that but it implies its ability to interact with other discrete particles I gather. It seems to me whatever quantum mechanics comes up with it will have difficulty fitting SR be it my gravity rain idea or the graviton they seek. I dont know if there are any experiments looking for the graviton. The cleaning fliud tanks in mine shafts look for dark matter candidates as I understand it..wimps in particular... gravity rain would be very wimpish I recon.
alex
They dont say it acts as a pushing force yet but they are almost there
alex

[wraithe]

hmm, i think i need to do some more reading about what you wrote...dont dispair, my problem is that i'm doing 3 things at once and to read that and do the washing at the same can be a little confusing...cant put gravity in the washing machine and i cant put washing powder in the pc...
Love the theory, brings on a whole new way of looking at things, yet a way that has been there and dismissed...be persistent and people with little ideas like that, will slowly be accepted...most nutters turn out to be true thinkers but the "not so intelligent" do like to flex there muscles and not there brains...
by bringing force into the equation instead of attraction, you have shown another way of explaining the forces of the universe...i do have a problem with time, i see it as a constant and all other things being variables...and the big bang..hmmm...i think some one came up with that after seeing what happens to stars after they implode...the idea that the universe can be measured by us is absurd(dictionary plz)...yes maybe it did happen a few trillion times but we have no way of saying that the universes is expanding, only our little section we can measure..how big is the universe?..well i try not to think of it as i have this idea that it dont end, to base religious beliefs into that then it has an end but to accept it is endless is hard for some...(they may say it but not think it)...
if force is the constant within the universe then most of our theories are wrong(they probably are anyway)...attract and repell are the opposites of each other and can be confused with each other..its the same with electricity...if you have down any welding with an arc welder, you will see the molten metal flow away from the welding rod, but at the same time the welding rod is being attracted to the metal...now some say its the electricity force you away but it also attracts...now when a welder arcs it has a cycling effect caused by alternating current...thats two opposites, one attracting other repelling...in the universe, what is the attracting force and what is the repelling force, is it possible that both exist and we have only looked at one with the wrong idea of which one we are looking at...

anyway back to my washing...
Kath

[Doug]

G'day, if I might add a few thoughts on the debate?
Universal preasure, coming from all directions? wouldn't that balance out to zero? Take for example an object sealed in a chamber. The chamber would equalib equi eqk... balance out the forces leaving the contents of the chamber at virtual zero G, if I am understanding the idea.
The rubber sheet idea is far too simplistic to have any real value, but I wonder if 'we' threw out the baby with the bath water, when the idea of an ether was discarded? (No I don't believe in a flat Earth,... too many hills )

Consider the effects of 'surface tension' on objects floating on a fluid, if there were a sort of etheral medium in which the physical universe was boyant then that would also give rise to universal attraction; provide a medium by rule of the density of which the limiting velocity is C, would be in harmony with relativity etc, etc.
The big problem I guess is that the physical universe doesn't lend itself to the idea of laying on a sheet; rubber or etheral.

cheers,
Doug

[Doug]

Dr. Russel Humphreys Ph.D., a physysist has published a paper and subsequently a book titled 'Starlight and Time'. From memory he presented a concept that more or less agreed with relativity, however he shows a model whereby the universe can be young, yet the distances for Galaxies is still valid.
A book well worth reading. One of the concepts he uses, reminds me of an ether. He wouldn't / didn't use that expression either because his work would be dismissed out of hand, or perhaps I have misunderstood what he meant. In any event he does raise the possibility of a something, not dark matter, but a something.
cheers,
Doug

[xelasnave]

Thank you Kath and Doug for your interest and input.
One can think as the pressure come from everywhere it must achieve an equilibrium however the "stuff" making up this pressure is traveling at C movements of bodies will constantly be mixing the contents of the barrel.. as the Moon travels across the sky it is pushing thru this pressure and now doubt the constant change prevents an equalibrium being achieved.
And remember that the coming from everywhere thing literally applies everywhere ..that is hard to comprehend.. Think of what stars you see at a particular place and mental move to others you see the same stars..they each castenrgy to each and every part of the Universe they touch. Look at one of my wide field shots, each star,each point of light is the centre of a many layered sphere of light extending out to space for billions of light years (ok so there are young stars as well) and as full of stars as those shots display the number of stars in the Universe number many billions fold. Yet at anypoint light from each object passes thru the selectedl point .. and perhaps an underlying "pressure" a "gravity rain" that falls everywhere in creation.I one were to sample the light travelling thru the sparsest part of space, it will contain a sample of all photons from every where.. (some will not have reached that point but I hope you can see the picture in its enormity and complexity from trying to mental put all this in a box...just think of the objects billions of years old whose light has passed that point for billions of years)
Thanks again
alex

[xelasnave]

I could not find this earlier but can you see why I like it

Michio Kaku: "Einstein also said that behind every great theory there is a simple physical picture that even lay people can understand. In fact, he said, if a theory does not have a simple underlying picture, then the theory is probably worthless. The important thing is the physical picture; math is nothing but bookkeeping."

alex

[g__day (Matthew)]

You have a number of competing theories for this one, from SuSy to super gravity to relativity. We can not answer for sure is gravity quantised yet (dip into Loop Quantum Gravity vs the Higgs Field and Higgs Bosun). We are pretty sure that Gravity can radiate in any Realtivistically dominated volume of spacetime within 97% - 100% of the speed of light (based on the theory of relativity and experiements in 2003 involving quasars and Jupiter. But we don't yet have a framework for gravity that works well at extremes of interstellar distances (just look at MOND) or microscopic distances (for that matter none of the four forces work sensibly at these down to quantum levels.

Under GR spacetime itself can expand faster than lightspeed without voilating any rules. Because its the framework or topology of spacetime, not the matter nor the energy within it, doing the streching. In laymans terms outside or between two gravitationally held volumes of space (where relativity definitely applies) say the rather large and empty void of spacetime between two super clusters, spacetime itself can expand at, equal or above lightspeed without violating General Relativity.

Too GR and its rules break down in any of the following situations:

1. Quantum level - as you approach a Planck level of space, time or distance - you are ruled by quantum mechanics not relativity, which follows a totally different and wierd set of rules

2. The really energetic places - once you the heat to the level where energy densities approach 10^15 GeV (think above 10 ^ 24 Kelvin - much, much hotter than a super nova) you are getting into the realms of the heirarchy problem. At this point the fours forces (gravity, electromagnetism, strong nuclear and weak nuclear forces) are predicted to re-combine one by one (like a backwards Big Bang cycle) until you have three, then two and finally only quantum gravity remains to control such a reality. Once strong, weak and electomagnetism merge you are nowhere near the domain of GR and the rules of gravity can be kissed away.

3. Extremely dense objects, think grav stars and black holes, again within their event horizon scenario 2 above may play. Outside the event horizon gravity is certainly the dominant force and relativity again holds sway.

The Higgs field interacting on the Higgs bosun is an interesting model, show that gravity is really just a side effect of a deeper underlying reality.

Finally here's an interesting aside for you. If all the matter and energy of the Universe was once again localised you'd have a black hole with an event horizon how big? Well about 20% bigger than the best estimate for the volume spacetime is believed to occupy today! So how did the big bang every manage to outrace its own crushing gravitational shell - that should have imploded it back into oblivion before it got past a trillionith, trillionith, trillionith of a second?

Answer - likely gravity didn't exist as a seperate force until the Universe had cooled and expanded and inflation finished - at around 10^-34 seconds after the big bang. Prior to that quantum gravity held sway. Once inflation kicked in the Universe was travelling maybe 50,000 times faster than lightspeed until it had expanded form a point in space up to the size of a orange. By this stage it cooled enough for gravity to phase into dominance. But the Universe by this stage had become casually disconnected into clumps (Hubble Spheres) expanding away from each other faster than lightspeed. So gravity could not travel from one lump to the next fast enough for the expanding peices of the Universe to catch the fleeing pieces and pull it all back together!

To this day our reality is our Hubble Sphere - a light cone 14.8 +/- 0.1 billion light years, in a Universe that may exceed 200 billion light years diammeter. Beyond this distance things are too far away and receding too faster to every influence us under GR. Perhaps this is what Dark Energy really is, our reality passing where other Hubble Spheres have come and gone and their residual gravity wells expanding our Universe!

[Shawn]

OOOh Alex this is so close to "time dilation" next it will be haircuts and sport...

[Shawn]

In fact, you could get away with it if you argued, Whilst I was getting a haircut, watching Sky on the hanging TV on the wall which was tuned to a football match , I had a revalation.."insert post" very subtle but you could probably get away with it.

[xelasnave]

G Day
thank you for your input and interest.
You have been more informative with very useful information in a small parcel. Of course when you see gravity as a pushing thing there is no reason to see a problem of the Universe crushing as you wondered. If it was this way the radiation pressure in effect is the gravity pressure. Its only an idea but I am trying to explain how gravity rain makes points like this managable.(at least in my mind) this way of seeing it makes it easy to see why when close things will get "pushed" closer but when they are gravitationally remote will be pushed apart by the overal pressure. Just a thought.
alex
alex

[g__day (Matthew)]

Alex my pleasure

Head over to the Astronomy and Astro Physics section of www.advancedphysics.org and you'll be able to ask questions of many folk studing for their PhDs in the field, its an excellent website I fully recommend. You could also try www.able2know.com but that's amateur hour outside of physcology compared to the avdancedphysics site.

[xelasnave]

Thanks for those links. I doubt if you realise what you have done letting me loose. I have had a quick look and they both interest me and it seems like the sort of thought I enjoy is practiced (not off beat just trying with legitimate tools) I will learn much by reading the various attempted explanations and different things will click and fit, so that is so very positive. Thank you.
alex

[xelasnave]

Whilst on the subject I have been thinking about how my view of gravity may work in deep space. With our space craft leaving the Solar System they will encounter “deep space” something understood to be empty and devoid of immediate and significant gravitational influences. I read that they are slowing down in one account and in another that they were speeding up.So before I will look to see what they are doing I thought it through to see if I can predict what we will observe as they deal with “deep space”. Contrary to what others expect (I expect) I believe that we will see the craft appear to stop and then accellerate away to reach a speed of (same as Sun) after some time they will appear stop and then return in our direction.
This should show space is pushing I have a lengthy explanation if anyone cant work out why it will do that .. but a space time explanation tells you the same will happen. I think so on my simple attempts to understand the implications . Space time does not really show a push or a pull in fairness but if nothing else it says that an object at rest will want to stay at rest and that an object moving relative to deep space will wish to become stationary in relation to deep space. Or such is what I take from my understanding to date.
It is as much a prediction as to the effect of space time on objects in deep space as it is a gravity rain prediction commenting on the same. Gravity rain from all directions as it will be in deep space (and space time the rain is in the direction of the mass ) means I think that deep space will hold objects not subject to a considerable gravitational influence.
I suspect that when craft enter deep space they will be stepping out of the solar system bubble of influence and become their own separate bubble, and as such governed by the events of deep space not of the events within the solar system. When stuck in space the speed of craft will become that of our Sun simply by being stationary in relation to deep space. Eventually the Sun will show a corridoor of less gravitational pressure and the craft will start back. this will appear to us that it is slowing not returning however.
. Imagine an island in a lagoon at the edge of the lagoon and all around the water and the island is a small sea wall, such that the wall forms a circle all around the island and its laggon. When one stands on the wall you can look and see the island in the centre of lagoon and that the whole is enclosed in the sea wall ..on the other side of the wall is an ocean not joined in any way to the island other than the water that laps the outside of the wall. Looking to the outside ocean you notice that it rushes past at considerable speed although iots surface is smooth and unruffled as you would not expect given the apparent rush of water past your view, it is rushing faster than you could paddle your canoe in the lagoon. You drag your canoe out of the laggoon and over the wall and set it in the ocean, as soon as you push off from the sea wall you are carried away from your island sea wall at considerable speed.. you stop paddling but the island still rushes away . The surface you find yourself upon is calm not showing any evidence of the speed you noticed when your island was close.. even birds float about ..it is as calm as you have experienced in your Lagoon.. but you know your island travels thru this Ocean as if it had a destiny elsewhere (and it must).
I see similar when the space craft leave the influence of the Sun and solar system. Our system is like a bubble in deep space. The barrier where the Solar wind hits "deep space" may be where we find this sea wall between our island and lagoon, the Solar System, and the out side ocean of deep space..
When space craft get into deep space they will appear to race away from the Sun because of the Sun's speed relative to deep space in a similar fashion to the canoe racing away from the island. And although out of the expected range of gravitational effect if there be no other body present to confuse my outcome the Sun will still provide the only "shielding" or gravitation , the next major star is 5/6 light years away so I doubt if any space craft will get close to be taken within that stars gravitational bubble. So it is expected by me that the craft will return. If in the canoe we let out a line attached to our sea wall we could eventually pull ourselves back and although weak the only gravity (shield) presumably will remain the Sun and this is where the craft must return unless they find another.
When the craft returns to Earth (assuming it has no renetry problems at the wall of the Solar System which may be a consideration ) they can "date" materials on board to see if time dilation is real or imagined and given the time before the return there will be more than nano seconds to work with and that will settle the matter even for the layman suspicious of small numbers.. so if I wait long enough that should show the pushing thing at least I expect... and maybe that time dilation does or does not happen in real terms.. all that and its not even my mission .
alex

[xelasnave]

and I am finding the sites to be excellent, in so far as there are many matters disussed that are of interest to me. Also they are a bright and well educated bunch on my observation, some are gruff but markedly reserved given some of the questions that appear.
Thanks again
alex