Can I go wrong with a Paramount MX? - Page 2

Floyd · #21 24-02-2013, 07:38 PM

Thanks PRejto. Another small question: how many boxes should I expect? I haven't ordered any optional accessories. The website talks about just 2 boxes but some people in the PMX shipping thread spoke of 3 boxes - I'm guessing they ordered some additional accessories.

Regarding the PA - if I understand you correctly, you're suggesting I should use the Quick Polar Alignment Method just to get close enough to the pole? Once I've done that, I should make a model using 6 points and then setup an automated point gathering run - gather around, say, 20-30 points and then refine my polar alignment based on the model that tpoint calculates?

PRejto (Peter) · #22 24-02-2013, 08:41 PM

I'm pretty sure I had two boxes only.

Yes/no. Do use the quick polar align method to get you within striking distance of PA. Then Synch according to instructions and begin to collect points. You may need to get your first 6 points manually because your PA may still be too far off. Once the software sees six points it has enough information to be much more accurate in pointing even without changing your PA. It's kind of important to realise that T-Point can be very accurate in pointing even if PA is poor. These are two separate things! Anyway, to get an accurate PA report you need to collect at least 40 points. I don't think this is mentioned in the manual anywhere (in fact I think the manual was (is?) quite confusing about how many points you really need.) but in posts on the SB forum this was stated by the author of T-Point. You won't want to collect 40 points by hand so that is why I suggested that you really need to get your camera doing the hard work by doing automated T-Point runs. Once you collect at least 40 points there will be a PA report but advice is to run the super model and then use that report. They will usually sort of agree, but use the super model report. Another point is to collect points on both sides of the meridian, not just on one side, and if I remember correctly you don't want to wait too long to collect on both sides. There have been postings where lots of points were collected on one side and everything plate solved just fine, but going to the other side of the meridian plate solving would fail. Believe me, I know (!) all of this can seem rather confusing at first. It's a lot easier to just do it than it is to write about it. When I got my mount I actually had never used a CCD camera before so I avoided adding that complication (and I was having massive driver problems with my camera not liking TSX). The result for me was that I made things 100X harder. I was actually shocked when my first attempt at plate solving worked immediately. If you have not done this yet, download the T-Point users manual and read it about 200 times. No, twice might get you going, but more won't hurt! Also think a lot about your camera and drivers. Will it work with TSX? If there is no driver in TSX there might be one for CCDSoft which SB will give you for free if you just ask. You can just tell TSX to use the CCDSoft camera, or the MaxIM camera. If you have no driver problems it should be easy to get T-Point going. Also, if you don't yet have TSX you can request it right now from SB. I did and they provided it in advance of receiving the mount. It's good to read the manuals with the software open.

Peter

Floyd · #23 25-02-2013, 06:29 AM

Thanks Peter. I'm waiting for the funds to reach SB. I'm assuming that SB will then automatically register my account with the software keys so I can download SkyX and TPoint.

Did most of you fine folks order by credit card or did anyone here order by wire transfer? How long did it take the money to teach SB?

frolinmod · #24 25-02-2013, 06:35 AM

The quick polar alignment language in the MX manual has never been clear to me either. Compare the language in the old PME manual from years ago with that in the new PMX manual. You can see that they have attempted to add restrictions, but it's still not clear to me exactly what the restrictions are.

I think it's 42 or 43 samples where supermodel really kicks into high gear. Try it sometime. Collect 40 samples, click on supermodel, collect another sample, click on supermodel, etc. Each time you do this watch how much time it takes to compute the model and the quality of model that you get. Somewhere there in the low 40s of samples it hits a tipping point, takes more time to compute the model and produces a significantly different result.

I've never had any trouble with the azimuth adjustments. They always dial right in smooth as butter without trouble. It's always been the altitude adjustment that's given me trouble. Sometimes I get "sticky" motion, no motion or less motion than I expect as I turn the altitude adjuster. So now I always use the camera to provide visual feedback as to how much altitude movement I'm actually getting as I turn the altitude adjuster.

But mind you I have the ME. The adjustment knobs on the MX are more refined and presumably the weight of the OTA is less.

Floyd · #25 25-02-2013, 06:59 AM

How long does it typically take to gather 40 samples? My scope is F5.3.

PRejto (Peter) · #26 25-02-2013, 08:01 AM

I think SB just ships TSX on a DVD included with the mount so if you want it sooner I think you will need to request that as something special. However, be warned it is a rather large download. T-Point is not a separate download; it is automatically part of TSX Professional.

I can't tell you the exact time to run 40+ points, but suppose 5 sec exposure, 5 sec download, 5 sec to plate solve = 15 sec or so/point. It's actually probably faster, but would depend on your camera and binning mode. The slews are typically quick and close unless there is a meridian change, which there will be, but how many times is hard to guess. anyway, 40 x 15 = 600 sec. 10 min, so I would think between 12-20 min max...maybe faster. It's been a while since I've done this because I am permanently set up.

Peter

rat156 · #27 25-02-2013, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floyd

Thank you your response. I honestly do hope SB has implemented a better QC. I have a question - did you not feel that a $9000 mount shouldn't have had to have it's worm replaced?

Threads like this don't fill me with confidence: http://www.bisque.com/sc/forums/t/16...px?PageIndex=3

Sorry, but I've only just seen this. That is my thread, and no, it hasn't been fixed. Another one is showing similar problems on the Dec axis, but SB don't seem to want to know about it. They want me to adjust the cam again, I'm not an idiot, but I feel a bit like I'm being treated like one, is would be the sixth time I've done this. Greg, can you tell me the bits of the instructions that are missing? The mount has some problem which although intermittent is real, I've gone around in several circles with this problem, I have a half useful mount, if I had bought this in Aus, it'd be back with the agent.

Cheers
Stuart

Logieberra (Logan) · #28 25-02-2013, 08:48 PM

Stuart, I am down in Ballarat over Easter - 10 days. Are you a member of Snake Valley and plan on visiting? That's 15 mins from us. Would love to help if possible. Worst case, could call phil back here in Canberra for phone support, he's darn good with the MX as well.

Logieberra (Logan) · #29 25-02-2013, 08:51 PM

Also, problem could be re-affirmed by me online in Bisque forum, as another competent MX user. Can only bolster your argument

Two heads better than one.

rat156 · #30 25-02-2013, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logieberra

Stuart, I am down in Ballarat over Easter - 10 days. Are you a member of Snake Valley and plan on visiting? That's 15 mins from us. Would love to help if possible. Worst case, could call phil back here in Canberra for phone support, he's darn good with the MX as well.

I'll be out of the country for about six months from mid March, so, thanks for the offer, but I must decline. The main problem is not being able to find a set of circumstances that brings on the failure. Take , for instance, Sunday night. Turned on the mount to cool everything down. Went inside for a while to wait for sunset, came back to a mount failure. Reset the mount, it worked perfectly for a full set of 24 images of comet Lemmon. Slewed to NGC 2070, it took 15 of 18 subs of 15 mins each before failing sometime in the wee small hours.

Cheers
Stuart

rat156 · #31 25-02-2013, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frolinmod

Stuart, I haven't seen you use such strong language over on the SB support forums as you're using here. Perhaps it's about time you became a stronger advocate for yourself and spoke up a little louder over there. I don't mean in a nastier way. Heavens no. I mean in a more assertive way.

No, I'm trying to be nice in the SB forum. I have made a couple of pleads and have posted in another thread which is a bit less pleasant. If I had a personal email contact for one of the guys there it would be easier. I don't want to post bad stuff in a public forum, but I'm getting a bit fed up with the run around, I think I'm up to four members of the company commenting on the thread now. Perhaps I should just send it back, I can't use it for the best part of six months anyway.

Cheers
Stuart

Logieberra (Logan) · #32 26-02-2013, 01:36 AM

Stuart, I had a self-inflicted problem a while back with my MX. Funky mental-on-metal sound at approx 2pm position in RA each time (looking @ MX from behind and facing south). Drove me insane there for a while!

Turned out my homemade speaker wire dew heater straps were far too thick and tacky - with no 'slack', causing a tug on the RA axis @ 2pm each time.

Anyways, my point here - I emailed Sarah Bisque direct. We fleshed it out offline for a while there and, along with Phil's input, put this issue to bed. I've sent you a PM with her email address. She's one of the SB engineers. Good luck! Logan.

Floyd · #33 26-02-2013, 07:51 AM

Well guys, Colleen at SB just emailed and let me know that they've recieved my funds and I should have my tracking number by the end of the week.

I'm pretty confident sure I made the right choice here - I don't think any other mount comes close in the value that the PMX offers. Still hoping I don't get the issue you're having, Stuart.

It appears a couple of mounts are having that issue on the SB forum. Really hope SB gets to the bottom of this.

CDKPhil · #34 26-02-2013, 11:45 AM

Nice one Floyd, good to see you have taken the plunge.

It will be worth it.

If you need any help send me a PM, I would be happy to talk over the phone.

Stuart:

Have you checked the connections on the circuit board? Loose USB wire might be causing intermittent problems. Or maybe a faulty board? I have a spare board if you want to give that a try? Let me know.

Cheers.

cventer · #35 26-02-2013, 03:28 PM

Mechanically these mounts are fairly simple. So if you have ruled out anything mechanical eg cable snags, internal cable issues, cam spring etc...and timin belts, then it's time to look at electrics.

I had a strange issue for a while that I thought was electric and it turned out to be a crack in one of the timing belts with a build up of material from the belt creating a high spot that stalled the motor.

Check on electrics next. Check all cables on circuit board are sound. It slides out and you can check it easily. Check encoder connections on motors. Also make sure encoder is tight and not moving relative to motors. Failing this try a new Board as per Phil's offer.

I'm sure you will sort it....shame you have to though...

Logieberra (Logan) · #36 28-02-2013, 07:37 PM

Stu, saw your SB post, those black belts are evil! You can buy grey locally, 100% same as what SB sells. I forget where, Cventre has details of seller, I think (as didn't acknowledge receiving that info).

frolinmod · #37 28-02-2013, 10:32 PM

SB spec nylon covered fiberglass reinforced neoprene belts for the ME and polyurethane body with kevlar cord belts for the MX. With the ME they require belt tension be set with a sonic tension meter. I wonder why they don't do that with the MX as well. Maybe that's why the MX belts fall apart, but the ME ones don't?

rat156 · #38 02-03-2013, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logieberra

Stu, saw your SB post, those black belts are evil! You can buy grey locally, 100% same as what SB sells. I forget where, Cventre has details of seller, I think (as didn't acknowledge receiving that info).

Hi Guys,
Strangely, I had mentioned that I had the black belts in an earlier post, so if they are know to cause trouble why didn't SB simply send some out as they are doing now. It seems that my retensioning of the belt on the RA axis has shown the failure, there wasn't this much black crap before. There was some in the pulley when I pulled the worm assembly.

Hopefully this is the problem all along, I'll be very pleased if I get some nice grey belts and no errors.

I'll pull the lot apart today and clean the living sh!t out of everything. Looks like another clear one tonight, good testing weather.

Moral of the story Floyd, unpack the mount, undo the RA cover and check the colour of the belts.

Cheers
Stuart

bert (Brett) · #39 02-03-2013, 01:22 PM

I spoke to Steve bisque recently at the aic in Santa Clara. He mentioned that they have had issues with the pmx belt pulleys being out of round (a externally sourced component that slipped through qc). So check that. And Chris if you didn't know, that's why they replaced the worm blocks in your mount. It wasn't the worm as such that caused the issue.

I suggested that sb have some issues with PR here is aus as well. That did not sit well with him.

rat156 · #40 02-03-2013, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bert

I spoke to Steve bisque recently at the aic in Santa Clara. He mentioned that they have had issues with the pmx belt pulleys being out of round (a externally sourced component that slipped through qc). So check that. And Chris if you didn't know, that's why they replaced the worm blocks in your mount. It wasn't the worm as such that caused the issue.

I suggested that sb have some issues with PR here is aus as well. That did not sit well with him.

I'm not sure about PR issues, it's just the way you get treated sometimes. We are a long way away, in general the conversations are 12 hours from question to answer, so what you don't want is a (seemingly) glib reply about checking the latest download for TSX, it's the equivalent of the TV series The IT Crowd "turn it off and turn it back on again".

Maybe it's different in the States, but I would have thought that most of the Aussies that own a Paramount are serious users and know a thing or two about the mount hardware and software, I wouldn't class myself as an expert, but I'm not a newbie either*. So when you get a reply about checking the software and firmware (which is fair enough as a start) and nothing else, they have essentially wasted 24 hours of diagnostic time.

In my case, they could have listed a series of things to check/adjust, by the time I got to the belts and black stuff we may have figured out the problem. This is what I find annoying, but they aren't Robinson Crusoe with this.

Cheers
Stuart

* For instance, whilst this has been going on I have learnt that guiding near the pole is difficult, something I first thought was a mount problem. SB could easily have pointed me in the right direction, I had to find this out for myself.