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  #21  
Old 01-02-2013, 06:00 PM
entity62
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ww1 removed approx 1.75% of worlds population.
ww2 removed approx 3-4% of worlds population.
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  #22  
Old 01-02-2013, 06:08 PM
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ww1 removed approx 1.75% of worlds population.
ww2 removed approx 3-4% of worlds population.
True, but a lot of those people were of breeding age.
The other factor is medical science-people no longer die from diseases which previously wiped out millions
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  #23  
Old 01-02-2013, 06:12 PM
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The worlds population has gone up by well over a billion since WW2, so any loss of population in world war 2 has well and truly been made up by now.
Cheers
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  #24  
Old 01-02-2013, 06:16 PM
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The worlds population has gone up by well over a billion since WW2, so any loss of population in world war 2 has well and truly been made up by now.
Cheers
Quite true, Ron. But without the wars slowing things somewhat, I wonder what population levels would be now. A lot happens in 67 years!-thats another 2-3 generations.
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  #25  
Old 01-02-2013, 06:25 PM
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Actually, world population was only around 2.5 billion in 1950 (and probably a couple of hundred million less in 1945). It's now 7 billion!'

As Sir David Attenborough puts it, a tripling of population in his lifetime - that's a problem.
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  #26  
Old 01-02-2013, 06:28 PM
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Quite true, Ron. But without the wars slowing things somewhat, I wonder what population levels would be now. A lot happens in 67 years!-thats another 2-3 generations.
By about 2050 the postulated population is supposed to reach around 9 billion at the present rate.
Wars don't really do a lot to curb the population in the scheme of things,because the second and third world countries make up for the loss quite quickly.
Just look at the fammins and other disasters in these countries and yet their populations still increase.
India and China are still increasing their populations,between them they have about One Third of the Worlds population.
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  #27  
Old 01-02-2013, 07:36 PM
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Actually, world population was only around 2.5 billion in 1950 (and probably a couple of hundred million less in 1945). It's now 7 billion!'

As Sir David Attenborough puts it, a tripling of population in his lifetime - that's a problem.
Sure is a problem! But how do you stop people from reproducing? Unless the human race finds a way to limit its numbers,all the climate change measures we think about introducing will be to no avail.
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  #28  
Old 01-02-2013, 08:13 PM
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edit

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  #29  
Old 01-02-2013, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by madbadgalaxyman View Post
The physics of climate change is straightforward....there is some additional energy in the climate system, and temperatures rise.
This statement is not a good way to describe the episode of climate change that we are currently experiencing.

Firstly, as you can be seen from the image below, the energy received by Earth from solar radiation has actually declined over the last 1/2 century and the temperature has risen in spite of this.

Attachment 131577

Source:
http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/ta...LB.Ts+dSST.txt
http://www.pmodwrc.ch/pmod.php?topic.../SolarConstant
http://www.mps.mpg.de/projects/sun-c...a/tsi_1611.txt

The root cause of global warming is that the Earth is radiating heat in to space less effectively than it used to. By our activities, we have placed a wavelength specific insulator between ourselves and our heat source/heat sink . The insulator (CO2) is transparent to short wavelength, high energy solar radiation, but is opaque to long wavelength, room temperature black body radiation.

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But policy makers are not fools, and they are pointedly doing nothing about mitigating climate change because policy has to be costed and measured and has to be effected over a specific period of time.....
Indulge me while I deconstruct the argument that you have no doubt been sold via the main stream media.

Firstly, just because our politicians are not fools does not mean that their actions are in any way moral, ethical or above being corrupted by special interest groups waving the honey pot of cash &/or political tenure.

Secondly, the assertion that their inaction is a reasonable response to a lack of reasonable data is categorically incorrect.

NASA has spent a great deal of money trying to pin down our predicament using the scientific method ie) in terms that are above petty politics. Their measurements indicate that the Earth is in a state of energy imbalance due to CO2 pollution to the tune of +0.58±0.15 W/m2

Source:
http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/hansen_16/

Thirdly, the twin assertions that the cost of climate change and the financial resources required to combat it haven't been estimated is again not correct.

I'll draw your attention to the Stern review commissioned by the U.K. government and also locally to the analysis of the findings of the Stern review (adapted to Australia's situation) by the CSIRO where they find that the best economic model is achieved by strong immediate action on climate change, and that the business as usual model adopted by the current crop of world leaders is actually the 'worst case scenario' in every respect.

Source:

http://www.csiro.au/files/files/pkec.pdf


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you can't base policy on current climate models which are so poor that they cannot predict the amount of temperature rise and the timescale for the temperature rise.
So... what should we base or policy on?
The idea that global anthropogenic global warming isn't real?
That is patently absurd.
Don't you think we should defer to climate scientists instead of mining magnates, political whores and the press-titutes.



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In the absence of reliable predictions of how much temperature rise and over what period, which are 'actable" facts on which people will probably start to do something, climate change zealots resort to a generalized "we're all doomed" type of scenario.
Seeing as we already have reliable predictions of temperature rise over time (Hansen - NASA et al) and a viable alternative to our collective species suicide that would actually be cheaper than what we are currently doing, I don't get your point...?

Source:
http://beyondzeroemissions.org/zero-...australia-2020

The real doom-sayers as far as I can see are those predicting economic collapse if we disconnect from the nipple of the carbon economy.

The converse is actually true... the only viable economic option we have available to us long term is one NOT dependent on the burning of hydrocarbons as a fuel source.

In the mean time... enjoy the conflagration.

Last edited by clive milne; 01-02-2013 at 09:37 PM.
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  #30  
Old 01-02-2013, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Larryp View Post
Sure is a problem! But how do you stop people from reproducing? Unless the human race finds a way to limit its numbers,all the climate change measures we think about introducing will be to no avail.
I believe that either humans control their population growth or nature will do it for us...in a dramatic way possibly biological.
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  #31  
Old 01-02-2013, 10:13 PM
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I believe that either humans control their population growth or nature will do it for us...in a dramatic way possibly biological.
Quite possibly. With the increasing development of anti-biotic resistant bacteria, and the ready mutation of viruses, we may one day be faced with the modern equivalent of plague.
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  #32  
Old 01-02-2013, 10:23 PM
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Quite possibly. With the increasing development of anti-biotic resistant bacteria, and the ready mutation of viruses, we may one day be faced with the modern equivalent of plague.
The Spanish Flu epidemic of 1918 reportedly killed 20-40 million. The next epidemic is way overdue, just look at the more aggressive strains of the flu that appear each year and with the population being cramped in tighter in the cities.

Maybe we need to introduce the Logan's Run approach

Last edited by Hans Tucker; 01-02-2013 at 10:39 PM.
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  #33  
Old 01-02-2013, 10:43 PM
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It's not specifically the number of humans but rather the ecological footprint that's more of a problem - it's currently estimated that we need 5 x earths to support the current population, so either we get 5 times more efficient and cap population where it is, or reduce world population to around 2 billion with some modest efficiency gains (that seem achievable with current and imminent technology).

Bubonic plague was the worst pandemic in recorded history, and with no medical knowledge to help them, it killed 20-30% of the world population (estimates vary significantly), not 60-80% that would be required alone.

The next worst, the 1918 'flu, "only" killed 1-3% of the world population (again, estimates vary).

A new pathogen may be a large killer, but (IMVHO) I think famine, drought and resultant human conflict will account for more of us if we continue unchanged.

Nature will undoubtedly force change upon us if we don't do it ourselves, but the cost nature imposes will be a high one.
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  #34  
Old 01-02-2013, 10:44 PM
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Maybe we need to introduce the Bogan's Run approach
^ fixed.
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  #35  
Old 01-02-2013, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Hans Tucker View Post
Maybe we need to introduce the Logan's Run approach
There was a movie made in the '70s: ZPG ..... ah, here it is:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0069530/?ref_=fn_al_tt_3

It's a topic that comes up from time to time, but "we" really need to address it and soon (IMVHO).

The Japanese are taking a step in the right direction - emphasising development of technology to support the elderly while natural/economic forces slow the birth rate - but more is needed. One child per family would be a good start (IMVHO).
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  #36  
Old 02-02-2013, 11:32 AM
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Well i'll turn the A/C on high and open the doors and do my part to help the rest of the planet http://www.globalwarminghysteria.com...lobal-warming/

I think the name of the site says it all, stop reading the news papers and start reading the papers.
Yes, such web sites create confusion, uncertainty and complacency in the masses.

Thankfully our government and many others around the World take their advice and information from that which agrees with the advice from such organisations (among others) as:

CSIRO

Royal Society

Australian Academy of Science

NASA

American Physical Society
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  #37  
Old 02-02-2013, 12:31 PM
clive milne
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Well i'll turn the A/C on high and open the doors and do my part to help the rest of the planet http://www.globalwarminghysteria.com...lobal-warming/
Jay, you've been 'had'.
The site you have linked sources its information from a group that calls itself the 'friends of science' (they are anything but)
If you dig a little deeper, you will find that none of the expert scientist that they reference have expertise in the field of climate science. One in particular deserves comment.. Christopher Monkton. Even amongst climate skeptics, he is universally regarded as a charlatan.
Also, when you look a little deeper at the organisations that are funding the contrarian view (that you linked) the funding traces back to vested interests in the petroleum institute.

Quote:
I think the name of the site says it all, stop reading the news papers and start reading the papers.
On this point we agree....However, if you have some sense of emotional attachment to your current world view, you might find the exercise disappointing. Rather than giving you a list of peer reviewed scientific papers on climate science, I would encourage you to have a look at them yourself. How many can you find that actually support climate change denial? There are only two that I am aware of, one of them has already been withdrawn due to issues relating plagiarism and poor data, the other has credibility issues and is a poster child for the practice of abusing the peer review process (for commercial advantage). But by all means give it a go.

As for the 10 points listed on the page that you linked, they have already been thoroughly debunked by the scientific community. If you would like confirmation on this point, feel free to pick the one that in your opinion most ably demonstrates your argument, and in return I will point you in the direction of scientific papers that will (hopefully) put the issue in a more objective context.

Last edited by clive milne; 02-02-2013 at 12:58 PM.
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  #38  
Old 02-02-2013, 03:20 PM
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Saw on ABC this morning that a city in India (not sure which one) also has pollution way beyond normal. How do they live like that? You think that something would click right?

I feel a little ashamed that we provide the coal that allows this too.
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  #39  
Old 02-02-2013, 03:23 PM
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Saw on ABC this morning that a city in India (not sure which one) also has pollution way beyond normal. How do they live like that? You think that something would click right?

I feel a little ashamed that we provide the coal that allows this too.
If they didn't get the coal from us, they'd get it somewhere else
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  #40  
Old 02-02-2013, 03:26 PM
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Saw on ABC this morning that a city in India (not sure which one) also has pollution way beyond normal. How do they live like that? You think that something would click right?
Indian Capital Delhi.
Cheers
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