Electrical Engineering...a path to science?

[Dave2042 (Dave)]

Originally Posted by madbadgalaxyman

The world is full of people who did qualifications in astronomy and never actually worked as astronomers afterwards.

However, a surprising number of them still work in engineering or science or information technology, though not actually in astronomy.
Others of them do interesting astronomical work in a "non paid capacity"

Also, some of the top amateur astronomers are really straining the definition of "hobbyist". For instance, the members of the BOSS supernova search team, have had their names put on as co-authors of a scientific paper. In other words, the paper written by these people will be cited by professional astronomers, and they will have a citation record, which is a defining characteristic of the professional scientist.

Years ago, I wrote to Dennis Webb (an amateur astronomer), the keeper of a magnificent website about the Arp Galaxies, saying to him that it must be wonderful for him that his website is regularly cited in astronomical papers.
However, he was not (at the time) aware that his work was being used by professional astronomers!!
He had always seen himself as "an amateur", yet his work was good enough to be cited in several scientific papers.

cheers, madbadgalaxyman

Astronomy seems one of the few fields where amateurs are still in a position to do genuine valuable research.

I'd love to hear from anyone who can demonstrate I'm wrong about this.

[Capricorn1(Tom)]

General rule of thumb to be an astronomer require a Phd. Electrical Engineering is a great degree to complete-so many areas of expertise.You might be supprised where it takes you.I have 2 applied science degrees, in my youth worked as a surveyor,went back to uni externally to complete a building surveying degree.(i have my own company and approve anything from school developments to aircraft hangers and highrise buildings)and also completed a post graduate coures in fire engineering.Once you have completed a science or engineering degree,it is so easy to undertake further formal studies involving maths or science.And as a result of maths/science I have been self employed for more than 50% of my working life(retirement on the event horizon).Concur with Dave's comments.Cheers

[madbadgalaxyman (Robert)]

Originally Posted by Dave2042

Astronomy seems one of the few fields where amateurs are still in a position to do genuine valuable research.
.

Another science where amateurs make a big contribution is palaeontology.....you just have to get out there and find interesting and unusual fossils. Again, not easy to achieve, as most fossils you find will be very common ones. As one further example, I have worked on soil invertebrates with a professional soil scientist; here again, the requirements to get to "first base" in terms of starting to actually do research are considerable, in that you need to know quite a lot and you need to do a lot of work.

Teamwork seems to be a big factor in scientific success for amateurs (e.g. BOSS), for the simple reason that most of us have to fit our astronomical activities into our overbusy non-astronomical lives. So, teamwork overcomes the limitations of the limited time available to individual amateurs.

Some of the top astro-imagers, e.g R. Jay GaBany and Ken Crawford , have scored co-authorship of scientific papers, as they have been able to image so deep in the outer regions of galaxies that all kinds of unusual things have been found.

Incredible Persistence, and a laser-like mental focus, to the exclusion of most other activities (non-astronomical activities) has also paid off for some amateurs. For example, the late Erwin van der Velden did planetary imaging with a webcam that was used by NASA!! I got the impression that Erwin did nothing else except astronomy, though I could be mistaken in this opinion because I did not know him well. His 'amateur' status was technically true, but I got the impression that he was conversant with planetary science, at the level of a professional astronomer.

For my own part, I have too many other scientific interests (notably: microbiology, soil invertebrates & soil ecology, Australian vegetation communities, finding early Metazoans in the fossil record, etc.) to get a long way in astronomical science , because these activities take away from my limited free time available for astronomy. The most I have been able to score is a few acknowledgments of my assistance, in some Astronomical scientific papers (e.g. I am mentioned at the beginning of the De Vaucouleurs Atlas of Galaxies), and I have also got a few pats on the back from professional astronomers for pointing out interesting and anomalous galaxy morphology (my primary astronomical interest is the classification and morphologies and properties of galaxies)
As an example of my discovering 'anomalous galaxy morphology', I discovered a Voorwerp in Galex FUV data (see the science forum)

The difference between us, and professionals, is that "we don't have to go to work, and we don't have to turn up to the observatory if we don't feel like it". I am sure that all of the advanced amateurs who have made scientific contributions are doing it simply because they love the subject. However, it is not easy to make a contribution to astronomical science, as it requires both considerable knowledge and great persistence.

[midnight (Darrin)]

Well at least with electrical engineering there is some (or was when I did it in the late 90's) tough going maths.

I loathed engineering maths 3 with the last subject of that semester being residues. Somehow I passed.

But it is indeed a great course and can lead you to many other fields.

Darrin...

[bojan]

Originally Posted by madbadgalaxyman

....However, it is not easy to make a contribution to astronomical science, as it requires both considerable knowledge and great persistence.

And money ...

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by madbadgalaxyman

Another science where amateurs make a big contribution is palaeontology.....

I think there are also a few in archaeology. People will volunteer to go on a dig where they work under the supervision of the professional archaeologists. I've also met a group of Americans who had paid to come out here to help in koala research. A team of them were watching a koala 24/7 noting its every move, literally recording when it scratched its nose etc.

Originally Posted by madbadgalaxyman

Teamwork seems to be a big factor in scientific success for amateurs ....

As indeed it is for professionals.

[madbadgalaxyman (Robert)]

Originally Posted by bojan

And money ...

My work/play that involves looking for unusual galaxy morphologies doesn't cost much, as I use a lot of other people's data, most of which is now online and available for free.

In general, there is a colossal amount of astronomical data (literally a 'firehose' of astronomical imagery and measurements) gushing its way onto the internet, and hardly anybody is looking at most of this data and imagery with a view towards finding novel or unusual features in the data.
(the number of 'prepared minds' with the requisite knowledge is dwarfed by the colossal number of observations)(I am not considering here the 'galaxyzoo' approach, which I think has strong limitations)

You really need a very good background in astronomy to know what is a normal measurement - or a normal feature seen in an image - so as to be able to find something unusual that is not normal. I personally do know the structures of galaxies about as well as some of the professional galaxy morphologists like Ron Buta and John Kormendy, but it has taken me many years of comparing 10s of thousands of galaxy images in order to reach this level of knowledge. However, my work of finding unusual features in galaxies costs very little money, as the images can be viewed for free.

The data is usually free to use (at least, nobody minds you analyzing features in a galaxy image), but I had to gain a very detailed knowledge of the usual structures seen in galaxies, and I had to learn how to classify galaxies at the professional level, so as to prepare my mind for finding unusual things in the population of galaxies.
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I agree with AstralTraveller that there is a lot of inexpensive field biology that you can do, which is valuable to science. All you have to do is get out there and observe the animal or the vegetation!(I recently spent a day observing some forest near Tenterfield; plenty of complexity there to figure out!)
As another example, little is known about the basic biology of the Marsupial Mole, so you just have to get out there into the middle of the trackless desert and observe it!

Another cheap way to contribute to science is to observe large eukaryotic single-celled organisms, small arthropods, fungi, etc., by using a stereomicroscope. Even a professional-level stereomicroscope costs only about 2 or 3 thousand. I have done this type of work myself, but it took a couple of years of personal study before I could really understand what I see in the microscope.
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[bojan]

Originally Posted by madbadgalaxyman

... However, my work of finding unusual features in galaxies costs very little money, as the images can be viewed for free.

That is true... partly.

But, you need to invest a lot of time (as you mentioned in your post earlier).. and time is money.
To be able to spend your time on research, you have to have the steady income from whatever other source.
Not many people have that these days.

[Nortilus (Josh)]

Thanks to everyone for your imput on this...it has made me think a bit deeper into the Electrical Engineering field and realise there are alot of great opportunities for a electrical engineer to progress, with futher postgrad study, into science and use the engineering knowledge as part of research...
thanks again...im have decided to enrol for mid year and external...hopefully i get excepted

[Barrykgerdes]

Wish you luck in your course but remember rote learning may get you a great degree but won't get you a career.

Barry

[madbadgalaxyman (Robert)]

Originally Posted by bojan

That is true... partly.

But, you need to invest a lot of time (as you mentioned in your post earlier).. and time is money.
To be able to spend your time on research, you have to have the steady income from whatever other source.
Not many people have that these days.

Good comment, Bojan,

I seem to recall that someone once said that the astronomer should have a "tranquil and monkish existence".
(which equates to : no non-astronomical disturbances to destroy one's focus on astronomy, and lots of time to work consistently on astronomical projects)

Me, personally, I have retired early so as to be able to practise my several scientific hobbies!
(My project for the first quarter of this year is studying books about marsupials!)

It is all a matter of persistence and enthusiasm, which has taken a lot of amateurs a long way in science.

Oh, and Josh, it looks like you are going to have a busy time if you want to learn astronomical science as well as engineering. As I mentioned, I know of some people who wrote scientific papers in astronomy while they were still doing their BSc...... so it looks like it's time for you to get to work! (As mentioned before, I can make some recommendations for astronomy books which can get you to the upper undergraduate level of astronomical knowledge; my own Very Extensive personal library of books on the ISM, star formation, stellar evolution, galaxies, etc., was designed for the express purpose of upgrading my knowledge to the equivalent of a graduate in astronomy)
(many of these books require the reader to have at least one year of university physics and maths, or preferably two years of physics; alternately, she/he should have the equivalent level of knowledge obtained from elsewhere)

cheers
Robert

[Nortilus (Josh)]

Well the time is drawing near...in late feburary i start my journey into getting my degree...i have to complete 3 prerequisite course first, 2 in math and 1 in physics and then i will be able to start my degree in 2015...going back to full time study is a bit nerve wracking but i am excited too...

Will keep you all updated on how im going

[RickS (Rick)]

Good luck, Josh!