Is spelling old fashioned?

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Yeah well...there are ways of fixing this mess up, but sadly, none of the current political parties are even remotely interested in doing the right thing by their constituents. All they care about is money. We'd need a new party with a majority in both the house of representatives and the house of senate. One to introduce the laws, the next to approve them. Telstra and banks would be on my hit list as well. Oh, and doctors and dentists. Add lawyers to the list as well. Add large corporations and rich buggers as well to the list whilst I'm at it. Oh yes, there'd be a world of hurt for a lot of areas as far as I'm concerned.

Dave

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by dpastern

Yeah well...there are ways of fixing this mess up, but sadly, none of the current political parties are even remotely interested in doing the right thing by their constituents. All they care about is money. We'd need a new party with a majority in both the house of representatives and the house of senate. One to introduce the laws, the next to approve them. Telstra and banks would be on my hit list as well. Oh, and doctors and dentists. Add lawyers to the list as well. Add large corporations and rich buggers as well to the list whilst I'm at it. Oh yes, there'd be a world of hurt for a lot of areas as far as I'm concerned.

Dave

Tried that....I was the VP of a political party here in QLD and I was in the process of sending it national. Didn't work in the end...same old story, too many people near the top wanting power, too much ambition and back stabbing. I ended up leaving...no matter what I did to get things going I always found obstacles in the way and I just didn't want to deal with the dishonesty and backstabbing. You try to do the right thing and you get taken down, and quite frankly I didn't want to play their games. How can you do the work you're supposed to do when the rest of the executive of the party you're in is always playing power games. I probably could've done the same, but I'm not that type of person. I tried to get things organised, but always had someone undermining me.

I can tell you now, it's not worth it unless you can find people that are decent enough as people and that will work for the greater good and not themselves. Never trust lawyers (funny I should say that, I have friends who are lawyers!!), no matter what they say or do where politics is concerned. No, in politics, you have no friends and the only person you can rely on is yourself. Although, politicians can't even do that, for the most part. 90% of the time they compromise their own ethics if it means more money and/or power.

[marki]

Originally Posted by dpastern

My advice to teachers is to:

1) remove DVDs/Videos when it comes to English subjects. Make the kids actually read and comprehend the literature

2) remove calculators. Make them use slide rules, make them think and use their brains for maths.

3) Ban mobile phones from school premises. Sorry, but there's no need for a kid to have such a device. For all those that would disagree with me - if they're so critical, how the hell did I, and many others of my generation and older, survive without one? mmm? Care to answer that one?

4) Ban the Internet @ school. Let them research using books. Actual books. Too many kids are copying/pasting whole paragraphs from the Internet and becoming adept at being parrots. They do not comprehend what they are studying, they simply parrot phrases. This is again, a major problem with the modern degree imho, and probably half the reason why most modern teachers are failures imho.


Dave

Dave, I agree with some of your sentiments but here are the arguments that would be presented against your line of thought.

1) English students must study all forms of communication if they are to be prepared for the modern world. That incudes texts, poetry, classics, media, film etc. To remove any one of these would be hindering their understanding of the world they live in. Visual forms of communication are by far the most common and persuasive so why would you remove them? Bit like taking the plus sign out of maths.

2) Calculators have given many kids the opportunity to do maths that they could never have done otherwise. The level of maths taught at a high school level is much higher then when you and I went to school. For example the calculus teacher at my school recently set his class an investigation in which they had to use partial differentails to solve the problem and the kids managed quite well. I have a number of these kids in my chem class and they can count very well. When I mark their tests the calculations section no matter how much I tie them into knots are always perfect. As an aside maths courses in WA have both calculator and non-calculator components and the kids can only use one for part of their exam. I personally hate number crunching, it is not a great skill, it is mundane and boring. Better they learn application as theoretical maths is only good as a tool for science (sorry Rob).

3) Mobile phones should be crushed at the gate before entry. They are a huge problem. Unfortunately most parents think they are essential and it's a battle we cannot win.

4) Kids who cut and paste straight off the internet are easy to catch out. Teachers are well aware of the writing ability and level of expression of their students and the ones that try it are genrally very lazy (the biggest problem in education in my book). All one has to do is google the search phrase and the first hit is usually the item the student has used. We also make them reference all sources which we check. At my school plagiarism and collusion are serious matters and the kids will only try it once. They get an instant zero for the assessment and have to research another question which must be submitted in full. They will recieve no credit for this one either and they genrally have to complete the makeup assignment in after school detention. Considering the resources available in most school libraries it would be criminal to remove the net as a research tool. It's part of the modern world and kids need to know how to get the most from it including sorting the @#$% from the clay.

Mark

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Yes, I realise this Carl. This is why I keep saying that there is no hope for us as a species. We can't even treat each other nice, how are we supposed to treat other species and our environment nice?

I know this sounds defeatist, but as I said to someone on Friday @ work - I'd rather be a realistist and admit when something is broken, than live life with false optimism. False optimism is growing, and it's the bane of our society. When something is broken, it IS broken. Saying it isn't broken and hoping it'll go away *doesn't* fix the problem. Sadly, too many people live with false optimism in todays' society. In reality, it's the too hard basket, but people don't want to admit it.

Dave

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

1) If that is the case, how did English students survive before TV and Video (let alone DVD)?

2) same as with point 1) - how did advanced Maths students do Calculas before Calculators? Hell, Sir Isaac Newton managed it all 300 years ago!

3) Agreed. And Schools can, and should, ban them. If all schools ban mobiles, what will parents do? Don't give me any of this kid's safety BS or sexual predator BS. Kids for many years managed without mobile phones. Modern kids are lazy, technology driven beasts, and it's NOT healthy for them, nor society. We're seeing the tip of the iceberg now, in a 100 years it's going to be a LOT worse. It makes me glad that I've probably got 30-40 years left.

4) Many kids evade getting caught for plagiarism. Many teachers don't care. Again, kids survived for many years with computers and Internet. If they could do it then, then they can do it now. I guess I'm a bit like Giles in BTVS - computers aren't tangible. Books are. Call me old fashioned, but we're far too reliant on technology, especially children.

Obesity with children? Well, most parents are becoming too lazy to encourage their children to be active. Kids with Playstations, Wiis, Xboxes, TVs, Computers are becoming a plague. Parents too busy to cook decent meals, so they live on take away. There are reasons for this, and sadly, it's all derived from greed [and money].

As a society, we're broken.

Dave

Originally Posted by marki

Dave, I agree with some of your sentiments but here are the arguments that would be presented against your line of thought.

1) English students must study all forms of communication if they are to be prepared for the modern world. That incudes texts, poetry, classics, media, film etc. To remove any one of these would be hindering their understanding of the world they live in. Visual forms of communication are by far the most common and persuasive so why would you remove them? Bit like taking the plus sign out of maths.

2) Calculators have given many kids the opportunity to do maths that they could never have done otherwise. The level of maths taught at a high school level is much higher then when you and I went to school. For example the calculus teacher at my school set his class an investigation in which they had to use partial differentails to solve the problem and the kids managed quite well. I have a number of these kids in my chem class and they can count very well. When I mark their tests the calculations section no matter how much I tie them into knots are always perfect. As an aside maths courses in WA have both calculator and non-calculator components and the kids can only use one for part of their exam. I personally hate number crunching, it is not a great skill, it is mundane and boring. Better they learn application as theoretical maths is only good as a tool for science (sorry Rob).

3) Mobile phones should be crushed at the gate before entry. They are a huge problem. Unfortunately most parents think they are essential and it's a battle we cannot win.

4) Kids who cut and paste straight off the internet are easy to catch out. Teachers are well aware of the writing ability and level of expression of their students and the ones that try it are genrally very lazy (the biggest problem in education in my book). All one has to do is google the search phrase and the first hit is usually the item the student has used. We also make them reference all sources which we check. At my school plagiarism and collusion are serious matters and the kids will only try it once. They get an instant zero for the assessment and have to research another question which must be submitted in full. They will recieve no credit for this one either and they genrally have to complete the makeup assignment in after school detention. Considering the resources available in most school library's it would be criminal to remove the net as a research tool. It's part of the modern world and kids need to know how to get the most from it including sorting the @#$% from the clay.

Mark

[marki]

Originally Posted by renormalised

Tried that....I was the VP of a political party here in QLD and I was in the process of sending it national. Didn't work in the end...same old story, too many people near the top wanting power, too much ambition and back stabbing. I ended up leaving...no matter what I did to get things going I always found obstacles in the way and I just didn't want to deal with the dishonesty and backstabbing. You try to do the right thing and you get taken down, and quite frankly I didn't want to play their games.

Carl, politics always attracts the same type of person no matter how noble the original ideas may have been. We need to find a way to decrease their influence and power and get them doing what they are supposed to do, represent the people who elected them.

Mark

[marki]

Originally Posted by dpastern

1) If that is the case, how did English students survive before TV and Video (let alone DVD)?

2) same as with point 1) - how did advanced Maths students do Calculas before Calculators? Hell, Sir Isaac Newton managed it all 300 years ago!

3) Agreed. And Schools can, and should, ban them. If all schools ban mobiles, what will parents do? Don't give me any of this kid's safety BS or sexual predator BS. Kids for many years managed without mobile phones. Modern kids are lazy, technology driven beasts, and it's NOT healthy for them, nor society. We're seeing the tip of the iceberg now, in a 100 years it's going to be a LOT worse. It makes me glad that I've probably got 30-40 years left.

4) Many kids evade getting caught for plagiarism. Many teachers don't care. Again, kids survived for many years with computers and Internet. If they could do it then, then they can do it now. I guess I'm a bit like Giles in BTVS - computers aren't tangible. Books are. Call me old fashioned, but we're far too reliant on technology, especially children.

Obesity with children? Well, most parents are becoming too lazy to encourage their children to be active. Kids with Playstations, Wiis, Xboxes, TVs, Computers are becoming a plague. Parents too busy to cook decent meals, so they live on take away. There are reasons for this, and sadly, it's all derived from greed [and money].

As a society, we're broken.

Dave

1) The whole purpose of education is to prepare young people to survive in the world they inherit. Removing a major component based on ideals is plain silly.

2) In his day there were about a dozen people capable of doing basic calculus. Things have moved on and now millions of people have the ability to contribute to human understanding through complex maths. If you trully hold this as a plausable argument the I suggest you switch off your computer go out the back and find a big flat piece of slate and start carving. If you read a little history on many of the greats you will find they all had one pet hate and that was repetative mindless number crunching. I am sure Newton would have jumped at the chance to use modern technology to help him solve problems.

3) Agreed.

4) Wish we had enough books to cover all we want the kids to learn but we don't. The internet is a necessary evil.

Mark

[DJDD]

Originally Posted by marki

1) English students must study all forms of communication if they are to be prepared for the modern world. That incudes texts, poetry, classics, media, film etc. To remove any one of these would be hindering their understanding of the world they live in. Visual forms of communication are by far the most common and persuasive so why would you remove them? Bit like taking the plus sign out of maths.

I agree with the rest of your comments but this one I find hard to accept.

Isn't there a course for visual communication in schools? it is there that students could critically review a movie/dvd/etc.

We have a 19-year old working for us and he did not study any novels just the movie adaptations. I still cannot believe that! Of course, his spelling, use of grammar, writing skills, etc. are terrible. I find that I am teaching him how to write simple letters/emails. Shoul that not be done at school/home?

My wife did not study English in Years 11 and 12 but read voraciously and has a wider vocabulary, is wider read, and speaks/writes/understands English much better than most. And English was not spoken at home.

I submit, based upon the above, that studying a DVD is not the same as studying novels, etc., and that reading instead of watching movies is the best way to improve the use of English by students.

[marki]

Originally Posted by DJDD

I agree with the rest of your comments but this one I find hard to accept.

Isn't there a course for visual communication in schools? it is there that students could critically review a movie/dvd/etc.

We have a 19-year old working for us and he did not study any novels just the movie adaptations. I still cannot believe that!

My wife did not study English in Years 11 and 12 but read voraciously and has a wider vocabulary, is wider read, and speaks/writes/understands English much better than most. And English was not spoken at home.

I submit, based upon the above, that studying a DVD is not the same as studying novels, etc., and that reading instead of watching movies is the best way to improve the use of English by students.

I don't know what they are doing over your way but here students must have a good working knowledge of all types of media and as such study all forms. If all your english teachers do is show video's then you have a serious problem. We do not have a visual communications course over here. It is all covered in general english. We do have another course (english literature) in which the focus is the study of the classics and is taken by the more able students. The problem with lit is that it always gets gets scaled down and the students recieve a lower TER even though the level of difficulty is higher. Go figure.

Mark

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by marki

Carl, politics always attracts the same type of person no matter how noble the original ideas may have been. We need to find a way to decrease their influence and power and get them doing what they are supposed to do, represent the people who elected them.

Mark

The only way to do that is to have the general populace get more involved in the political process...make it a true democracy, like back in Ancient Athens. Not this sham they call "democracy", which it most certainly isn't. The politicians need to be fully accountable to the people and the political party system abolished. We could go on about this till the cows come home, but this isn't the thread to really be discussing it, except as a short sideline. Suffice to say I think we'd ll have very strong opinions and ideas about this

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Exactly.

As to maths, tell me, how did my maths teacher, and those of his generation learn Calculas? Why did he, with 30 years of teaching experience, think that calculators were bad, were introducing dumb students?

Why is it that most kids cannot add up, even basic maths? If they don't have a calculator, or a PC, they're lost. I find it amusing that even those doing accounts style roles are lost with a calculator! Even for basic Maths. I'm no genius, but I'm fully capable of basic Maths in my head, on the fly. Do they even teach long division in primary school these days? We now have MIS (Maths in society, aka dummies math), at least in the HSC in NSW. It might have changed names in the 20+ years since I left school. Giving high school students the option of opting out of normal maths curriculums, and chilling out doing basic dummy maths (which they should have been able to do by the time they leave primary school I might add) is not smart. Make them use their brains, it's the *only* way to learn.

Similarly, EMail and Internet is creating kids who are unable to converse with others in face to face situations, with poor interpersonal skills.

Some may have misunderstood my intentions here - technology is great, but for crying out loud, make sure the kids can do it the old fashioned way before you allow them to use technology and take short cuts!

Dave

Originally Posted by DJDD

Isn't there a course for visual communication in schools? it is there that students could critically review a movie/dvd/etc.

We have a 19-year old working for us and he did not study any novels just the movie adaptations. I still cannot believe that! Of course, his spelling, use of grammar, writing skills, etc. are terrible. I find that I am teaching him how to write simple letters/emails. Shoul that not be done at school/home?

My wife did not study English in Years 11 and 12 but read voraciously and has a wider vocabulary, is wider read, and speaks/writes/understands English much better than most. And English was not spoken at home.

I submit, based upon the above, that studying a DVD is not the same as studying novels, etc., and that reading instead of watching movies is the best way to improve the use of English by students.

[marki]

Originally Posted by dpastern

Exactly.

As to maths, tell me, how did my maths teacher, and those of his generation learn Calculas? Why did he, with 30 years of teaching experience, think that calculators were bad, were introducing dumb students?

Why is it that most kids cannot add up, even basic maths? If they don't have a calculator, or a PC, they're lost. I find it amusing that even those doing accounts style roles are lost with a calculator! Even for basic Maths. I'm no genius, but I'm fully capable of basic Maths in my head, on the fly. Do they even teach long division in primary school these days? We now have MIS (Maths in society, aka dummies math), at least in the HSC in NSW. It might have changed names in the 20+ years since I left school. Giving high school students the option of opting out of normal maths curriculums, and chilling out doing basic dummy maths (which they should have been able to do by the time they leave primary school I might add) is not smart. Make them use their brains, it's the *only* way to learn.

Similarly, EMail and Internet is creating kids who are unable to converse with others in face to face situations, with poor interpersonal skills.

Some may have misunderstood my intentions here - technology is great, but for crying out loud, make sure the kids can do it the old fashioned way before you allow them to use technology and take short cuts!

Dave

Dave I think you are looking into your memories of school with rosy glasses on. There have always been kids who struggle with even the most basic maths. In my day we were split into 4 groups, advanced, intermeadiate, elementry and basic. From memory there was 1 advanced class with 15 of us, 1 intermeadiate class, 3 elementry classes and 3 basic classes. They still teach times tables and basic mental maths and arithmetic in primary (over here at least) but the use of calculators has allowed many students who would have in the "good old days" been relegated to the scrap heap to learn the difference between AM and PM, to gain some ability in maths. Artificial means? yes. Can they work out the answer? Yes. Do they have some confidence in maths? yes. personally I do not see the problem. The more capable students will go on to more difficult concepts whilst the least capable will be able to do something. It's win win in my book.

Mark

[astroron (Ron)]

It looks like the tenant of this thread has gone out the window, and is now just education bashing and defence.

[matt]

Originally Posted by astroron

It looks like the tenant of this thread has gone out the window, and is now just education bashing and defence.

I don't agree with you, Ron. Not at all, on this.

How can we have a discussion about spelling and ignore an issue such as education which is at the very core of the debate.

That's akin to discussing relativity and leaving out a discussion on the nature of light!...for want of a better analogy

[marki]

Ron, Matt is dead right on this one. Education is at the heart of this debate. The problem I have is politicians, media, parents and every man and his dog thinks they can do a better job (well get in there and have a go). I am simply answering the critics and have yet to see an original idea on this thread. If someone has the real answers I would certainly like to know. The best I can offer is as parents you need to take responsibility for the education of your children, you are the primary educator.... As teachers we would love to sit down and spend an hour or two with each child to make sure they understand but quite frankly that is never going to be a reality. If you can not do it yourself then you need to be paying for tutors that can do it for you. Expensive yes which is why it will never happen in mass education but a vital investment in your childs future. Remember mass education is more about conditioning each generation to accept their position in the ants nest. We rip kids out of their mothers arms at 4, 5 or 6 years old and get to work making sure they will be productive little worker ants. If I had it my way I would eliminate primary school altogether and give kids a chance to just be kids. When they are 12 or 13 and ready to go, education would start. As I have said previously we are seen as a glorified baby sitting agency and you only have to look at parents reactions when we send them home for one reason or another to work that out.

Mark

[matt]

Originally Posted by marki

The problem I have is politicians, media, parents and every man and his dog thinks they can do a better job (well get in there and have a go).

No, Mark....this is where you're wrong.

As a member of the media, I don't think I can do a better job. Certainly not a better job than the very small percentage of teachers whom I would hold in very high regard.

I think with a minimum of training, however, I could do at least 'as good' a job as perhaps many teachers in the system these days teaching English and Media Studies.

What I certainly believe is that, speaking generally, standards have fallen to a critical level and something needs to be done to address the slide.

And as a member of the media...I sympathise with your sentiments. Every man, woman and armchair commentator alive reckons they can do a better job than most journalists!!!

[renormalised (Carl)]

It's not about original or wonderous ideas of how to educate people, it's about what you expounded there, Mark. Primarily, it's the parents responsibility to teach their kids when they're young and make sure they're being taught properly. Teachers are there to disseminate knowledge and to instruct the children in the methods of how to use that knowledge. However, a good teacher will also also take some responsibility in the education of those children as well, making sure they understand what's being taught. Yes, they can't cater to every kid's needs and problems, however they can assist the parents of those kids in doing so. Problem is, these days, most parents hardly take any interest in their kids' education at all...except for the occasional P & T night and even then they sit there with blank expressions on their faces. Most are "too busy" with work and such to do so. Well they should look at themselves and prioritise their lives better. Yes, money is important, but your kids and family are even more so. It all comes back to our society and how it operates...it's messed up. It's the big chase for the almighty dollar and damn anyone or anything that gets in the way.

[marki]

Originally Posted by matt

No, Mark....this is where you're wrong.

As a member of the media, I don't think I can do a better job. Certainly not a better job than the very small percentage of teachers whom I would hold in very high regard.

I think with a minimum of training, however, I could do at least 'as good' a job as perhaps many teachers in the system these days teaching English and Media Studies.

What I certainly believe is that, speaking generally, standards have fallen to a critical level and something needs to be done to address the slide.

And as a member of the media...I sympathise with your sentiments. Every man, woman and armchair commentator alive reckons they can do a better job than most journalists!!!

Matt, standards have both fallen and risen depending on where you look. The kids do maths that used to be considered university level only. Chemistry is the same as when I went to school. English has become sociology and there is much less emphasis on the 3 R's and more on the ability to analyse and form an argument supported by work of previous authors. Physics has been contextualised and much of the math removed. Why, not enough girls were taking up engineering so they changed the sylabus to suit what they thought girls would be interested in. This has failed, no more females take up the subject and boys can't write essays, their one out (maths) has been taken away from them. Society and environment is dead, kids just don't care anymore. Much of this has stemmed from silly academic claptrap being forced into schools. They want kids to be working at abstract levels of thinking without giving them a chance to learn the basics. If you read some of the english assignments my kids have to do you would cringe, I know I do. I often sit down with my chem kids and a dictionary after class. Together we try to work out what they have been asked to do in english.

Mark

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by marki

Matt, standards have both fallen and risen depending on where you look. The kids do maths that used to be considered university level only. Chemistry is the same as when I went to school. English has become sociology and there is much less emphasis on the 3 R's and more on the ability to analyse and form an argument supported by work of previous authors. Physics has been contextualised and much of the math removed. Why, not enough girls were taking up engineering so they changed the sylabus to suit what they thought girls would be interested in. This has failed, no more females take up the subject and boys can't write essays, their one out (maths) has been taken away from them. Society and environment is dead, kids just don't care anymore. Much of this has stemmed from silly academic claptrap being forced into schools. They want kids to be working at abstract levels of thinking without giving them a chance to learn the basics. If you read some of the english assignments my kids have to do you would cringe, I know I do. I often sit down with my chem kids and a dictionary after class. Together we try to work out what they have been asked to do in english.

Mark

They may do maths once considered university level, but how many of them really understand it?? Not many, I would imagine. It also doesn't matter how well you can debate a point in English (or any other subject) if you can't express yourself clearly and concisely in the written word. Even more staggering, how can you divorce physics from maths??!!! It's the whole basis of the subject!!!!. Great, the kids can explain Newton's Three laws, but can they do the maths to work out how much force, mass or acceleration occurs for any given situation??. They know what light is, but can they derive wavelength and frequency of any given light source?? Maths is fundamental to physics. Society and environment is dead because the kids are assailed by all the nonsense they see on TV and distracted by the crud they sit in front of for hours at a time (xboxes, wii's, playstations etc etc etc). They're only interested in self gratification and mindless nonsense. Then you hit the nail right on the head...the stupid academic claptrap from fools who've spent most of their working lives cooped up in little offices at universities (especially in the U.S.), with no grasp of the reality surrounding them. "Oh, I have this great idea and it's totally applicable to real life...even though I don't have kids (or hardly see mine) and the last time I taught children was 20 years ago (or never)"...that's the sort of nonsense that's ruined education. Unfortunately, the politicians still have these grand ideas about social experimentation, as still do many of those academics, though some have woken up to themselves (the academics, that is).

Mark, you may also need a thesaurus as well, and another dictionary in Swahili, just to understand what the foreign language is you're reading!!!

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

I really have to disagree. The family that I lived with in Sydney had a daughter going through her high school year 11/12 - I would often help her and check her homework etc. It didn't seem any harder, or more involved than when I was at school. Back when I went to school, year 11/12 physics was taught in the first semester of the first year, of Uni. It only got harder.

The problem is that if you give kids an opt out, they'll take it. Everyone is lazy. They'll *only* learn if you *make* them. That's human nature. By removing auto aids, you are forcing them to use their brains, and thus learn. Sure, a small percentage will have issues, they always do, but I think you'll find that the majority of the kids will still learn.

Your comments Mark do not represent the facts - that kids of years ago still managed to learn without auto aids. Ergo, by pure logic, they are not critical to the learning process, and it is possibly to learn without them. Auto aids make kids lazy and dumb. It is not only my opinion, but the opinion of many older people, and several ex teachers that I know.

Dave