TOUCAM COMPARED TO OTHER CCD IMAGERS- in reply

[Dennis G]

Thanks to all who replied to my questions. There’s no doubt IIS is a terrific web site and its members are a great lot. I was impressed by the member who admitted the difficulty he or she had working IIS I‘ve been there and thank Mike for his patience with my many requests for assistance. At 80 odd years I need all the assistance available when using a computer.
Reading the replies to my questions I can assume the Toucam does a good job for its cost and simplicity, but there is better CCD imagers if you are able to afford them .
Reply to Mike ‘s question regarding the stability of my platform.
It is a Warren Peter’s platform design and accurately built, but with my designed and built drive mechanism, – see IIS - and if I’m able to set it accurately to the SCP, Mag Var. 2.5° west - which cannot be seen visually from my home location, - using a quality compass and a jig, which holds the compass accurately to the platform alignment, 1200 mm from it, to reduce the magnetic error caused by the ferric metal parts used to build the telescope, I’m able to hold an image reasonably still, with constant adjustment of the controller, drift being my biggest concern. I work on 25 seconds at 10 FPS. My Laptop is a small Toshiba with an added 1gig memory. The compression time between recordings is a pain and I find the computer likes to be powered with its adapter and mains power, which at times requires a very long power flex. Numerous trees makes it necessary to move the viewing location over the months so it isn’t possible to provide a permanent marked angle to set up the platform.

Will a mono DBK 21 provide better B&W detail than a one shot colour? And are the DBK imagers easy to set up for recording?
This begs the question, from you Mike. Your terrific pic of Clavius crater in the latest S&T mag., was it recorded in mono without any colour filters?
And finally, was my attached pic so poor it didn’t warrant a comment?

[renormalised (Carl)]

Yes, a mono DBK 21 will provide better resolution than a OSC, because the light isn't being split into 3 different channels in each pixel on the chip surface. That's why RGB imaging with a mono camera always looks sharper than a OSC pic. I haven't used a DBK but I would imagine it's pretty simple to setup and start recording....just the same as a webcam or LLV camera.

[monoxide]

i guess it really depends on how serious you are,
you can still get superb images with a colour camera as seen in this thread here:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=33564

while the colour version might not achieve the same resolution as the mono, it would be easier to use and this can become a factor.
instead of being limited to x amount of time per filter you can use that time that you would have been changing filters to shoot more frames.
another thing in favour of the colour version is less processing, you wont have to process separate avi's then stack the result to produce a colour image.

the mono version would be a fair bit more work involved but if everything is going your way it has the ability to produce a sharper image, also you could use it to do false colour imaging like imaging mars in IR or venus' atmosphere with a UV pass filter which makes it a bit more versatile.

[Dennis G]

Monoxide
Thanks to you and Renormalised for you kind reply. Would you Monoxide explain in detail your last para re false colour etc. I'm very keen to improve my images and being a n old slow learner I need to digest it all slowly before deciding. I appreciate your help.
Dennis G

[monoxide]

Hi Dennis,

i haven't done this myself but ill try to explain it...

the DMK will also pick up infrared and ultraviolet light aswell as visible light, for normal imaging you would be using filters that block this light but to do false colour imaging you can use a filter that *only* allows ultraviolet light for example, this will block all visible light and only record the UV wavelength. this can be very useful as i believe this is the only way you can image the cloud detail of Venus.
also a filter that only allows IR through is sometimes used to enhance features on Mars.

theres a good article written by Iceman (Mike) that might be a bit more helpful, see here:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/index.p...63,468,0,0,1,0

(there are a couple images at the bottom in false colour)

[Dennis G]

Monoxide
I have just found and looked at the pics you suggested . They are magnificent. Where they taken with a DMK 21 with the same resolution as the Toucam?

Dennis G

[Dennis G]

Monoxide and renormalised.
What sort of results would one get taking the moon with mono and no filter or a one off filter of some recomended value? I realise there wouldn't be colour but would they be similar to Greyscale pics just B&W?
Dennis G

[monoxide]

Hi Dennis,

Where they taken with a DMK 21 with the same resolution as the Toucam?

Mike uses the DMK21 which is 640x480 the same as the toucam but as others have said, much more sensitive.

What sort of results would one get taking the moon with mono and no filter or a one off filter of some recomended value? I realise there wouldn't be colour but would they be similar to Greyscale pics just B&W?

as far as i know most people convert their lunar images to greyscale, those with monochrome cameras usually shoot the moon with no special filters (mabee only an IR block filter)

from what i've seen though the DMK can produce excellent high res lunar images, heres one from another Dennis:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=32847
im sure there are a lot more in the Solar System section of the forum but that was the first i came across.

i'm a bit out of my league to give any hard facts or advice as im usually aiming my camera into deep space, i can only really help with what i've picked up myself while looking through this forum

[Dennis G]

Thanks for your replies. Can I lean on you again to anser these few questions?
When I purchased the Toucam I didn't have it modified owing to the fact I didn't understand why. Reading Mike's pages on using the Toucam he recommended 5 or 10 fps and I've always used 10fps. The reason being the Toucam I have will not stay on 5fps. Reading the articles and adverts for DMK imagers they enphasize its ability to provide 60 fps. Why? What benifit does it provide. Should one use the 30 maximum fps the Toucam provides and if so will it improve detail and the noise level?
If those imagers of Jupiter were taken with a colour DMK21 I 'd like to know if the resolution and chip size is the same as the Toucam or put another way, which model was it? Also my previous submission regarding the pics taken with mono and no filter. What would the results be?

[Dennis G]

I've asked questions before receiving thec last lot of replies. Sorry!
Your repies have answered my questions all except the 60 fps. I'd like to understand this.
Thanks for your assistance. You have convinced me!

[monoxide]

more fps can be better as it can 'freeze' the seeing and give you more good sharp frames, from memory though the more fps you shoot the lower your exposure time hence a dimmer image. this is where a sensitive camera and brute aperture help out.

[kinetic (Steve)]

Dennis,

One more point about fps when comparing the two cameras:

The DMK can blast out high quality, more sensitive frames at 60fps
with NO COMPRESSION because of it's lighning fast Firewire port.

(I am not sure if the USB version of the DMK can promise 60fps)

The Toucam can only deliver 5 fps with no compression.
If you dial it up to a higher fps then some compression will be needed
on board the camera before it spits it out your usb port.
Compression in any images will show up in processing as dodgy
artifacts not in the true data.

Steve

[Dennis G]

A question Monoxide.
You wrote: guess it really depends on how serious you are,
you can still get superb images with a colour camera as seen in this thread here:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=3356

I need a little more info if you could give me your time to answer this question. Above you state these magnificent pics submitted by Lester were taken with a colour DMK 21. I just want to confirm this with you. I'd like very much to know if Mike's Photo of Clavius Mike in S&T taken with a mono used any filters. As yet I haven't had any success getting this information. Reason being I doubtful I can handle the RGB filtering and computer processing. If I can be asured that a colour would produce images as good as Lester's of Jupiter I'd settle on a colour model

[iceman (Mike)]

Hi Dennis

Given your admission of perhaps struggling a bit with technology, I honestly think a monochrome camera with RGB filters may be too much for you - probably not in the capturing, but in the processing.

To process RGB images can take quite a bit of software and processing knowledge.

I honestly think you'll be better off with a DBK21AU04 - it has the convenience of one-shot colour, it's cheaper, but still has significant benefits over the ToUcam:
1. No compression!
2. More sensitive
3. Less noise
4. Faster framerates

My Clavius crater shot was captured through an Astronomik "Red" filter with my mono DMK. You can still capture excellent lunar images with the DBK. And for planets, you'll capture them in colour which makes processing much easier for those who struggle with that side of things.

Lester's colour Jupiter with a DFK (he removed the filter, so its effectively a DBK) is absolutely superb. Just remember that his was shot with a Meade 14" SCT in excellent seeing conditions. So you can't expect to get an image like that on every time out - but it does help to show what the DBK is capable of when everything goes right.

[TrevorW]

Excuse me asking a question but can a Orion Autoguider mono camera be used to capture pictures as I'm thinking of purchasing one prior to getting an EQ6 because it's new and I'm getting it at a good price.

[monoxide]

sure but it wouldnt be ideal for planetary as it has a progressive shutter (half of the chip is still exposing while the rest is being read)

ive only seen a few planetary images from these chips (colour version) tho and the quality is probably comparable with a toucam

[TrevorW]

Originally Posted by monoxide

sure but it wouldnt be ideal for planetary as it has a progressive shutter (half of the chip is still exposing while the rest is being read)

ive only seen a few planetary images from these chips (colour version) tho and the quality is probably comparable with a toucam

I'm led to believe that drivers and software are available to allow you to use the Orion as a mono camera capture device.

[monoxide]

sure you can use them to take images and if you cool the chip its actually a pretty capable camera for DSO's i was just saying its not ideal for planetary work because of the progressive shutter/pixel size. because of the chip size though its great for lunar work. also the Orion guider is just a re-branded QHY5/Qguider

heres some planetary/lunar shots with one:
http://www.luzestelar.com/Astro/es/S.../Jupiter-I.htm (bottom 8 images)
http://www.luzestelar.com/Astro/es/S...una/Luna-9.htm

heres a deep sky shot with the cooled version (you wont get anything like this with any of the standard guider cams but it illustrates how much cooling helps)
http://www.fishcamp.com/starfish_gallery17.html

[Dennis G]

Monoxide and Iceman Please be pactient with me, I've given this a lot of thought, but I'm still a little confused by statements that you both made regarding the DMK mono and colour and I'm holding off ordering from Bintal until Monday or Tuesday hoping you will reply to these questions.
I'm just as interested capturing Jupiter as I am the moon so if the colour is not going to be alot better than my Toucam I'm not interested purchasing it. Mike you wrote that the Jupiter images were taken with a Mono DMK with no filters. Also you wrote that you took the Clavious shot with your mono and a red Astronomike red filter.
Question;
If the DMK mono is used without filters can it be used in a similar maner as the AVI capture and processed in Registax as the Toucam ? I asume the end results will be B&W
If I had a DMK mono and a red filter, as above, is the image still captured as AVI and processed in Registax as I asked above? A one off capture?

I feel sure you both can see what I'm getting at. If the answers to the above questions is Yes, then it appears this is the way I need to go.
Your comments and assistance will be greatly appreciated.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Your answer to all of your questions above is....Yes. Doesn't matter what filter you use or don't use, the camera will capture the images as an .avi file. Both the colour and mono versions of the camera capture .avi files.

As Mike has said, the DBK would be the best choice for yourself, given what you've said, and that it has advantages over a Toucam...as have been previously explained. The DMK has better resolution, however to get that you need to be proficient at image processing. If you're not, then it doesn't matter what the differences between the DMK and DBK are. A good one shot colour image will always look better than a poorly or average processed mono/RGB image.