In an effort to help with the Sydney water crisis I was thinking of the effect on demand if say 50% of all buildings could collect the rain water, which maybe would not be suitable to drink but would work on gardens paths and cars . Even if the capacity averaged only 1000 litres it would ease the demand one would think. But thinking this would not be cost effective er efficient really $ ers spent to water stored, I thought we need more dams .Not welcomed by anybody usually in a catchement area... resuming ones home to put up dams does not win favour . Then it hit me why not place an “underwater dam” somewhere up Sydney Harbour . Crazy ??sounds it first up but one could build an underwater barrier with relatively simple engineering..be it using cement or a flexible membrane.. cost wise..mm close labour, close resources close to seat of power .. Now stop shaking your head and think about this.. With a barrier in place (with an overflow that runs a genny for the operations of the underwater dam , the water to the West of the dam will eventually become fresh as the salt water is flushed out into the sea (the harbour). So on one side we have our sea, salt and all, and on the other a reservoir of flesh water that has flowed in from the Sydney roof top catchment area . Sydney's very own Watergate.
So is that not as good as diverting rivers to in land Australia to ease the internal problem . Now dont go out and buy shares in er a membrane company but the only thing I can see against it is cutting up the boat services.. so we will need a salt water fleet and in addition a fresh water fleet. I would like to think out of all my ideas that is the most original The residual salt in the West Water may be brachish so we will need a desalination plant using less power.. no need to alienate the desalination lobby is there ... even smaller neclear power stations may be needed to supply the power to the desalination plants .
alex
If you have not guessed I can type faster than I can think and can assure you that very little time is wasted by actually thinking about anything I say. I spell check reluctantly because I am tempted to remove stuff I have pulled out of the darker regions of my mind .
Well I bet I could sell the idea .. but that only means I believe in it .
So if there are no more problems with it lets get started .
I think the main problem it where we shall place it, there will be contractors who can address any leaks.. Cant not go ahead with a great idea just because there may be "problems" .
alex
I did not want to admit a mistake but that was where Iintended it to go . Sorry to make you waste time Andrew...er besides having to read it ..
I had not thought of incorporating a tunnel in the dam wall but heck why not .. the contractors could reach those leaks easier .
alex
If per chance you happen to mean the most complex structure known to man, often referred to as a hole in the ground. Can also be found on many roads, known as a pot hole. Well I think its to complicated for our politicians. In India the usually have a backup ground water bore in some areas to get water for cleaning etc. They also collect Rain water in most buildings and run it into a ground tank or roof tank for use. This water is the main source for cleaning water. Drinking water comes from metro pumps that if your lucky you may have in your home else one per building or street. They also have underground power lines. Our politicians cant cope with power lines and pot holes you think they are going to come up with a decent water solution.
A underground dam (i think thats what you ment to say is not a bad idea, and could be built in every council area to collect water runoff from rain.
The amount of rain water we waste in this day an age is truely appalling. And I just dont understand why its allowed to happen. We have protest marches for many things in this nation, but I am yet to see any action about Water. Water is not a joke, its is the blood of society without it we perish. I am looking into puttin a tank at my place, but I feel useless watching and hearing the rain water run down roads and sewers into the sea.
They also have underground power lines. Our politicians cant cope with power lines and pot holes you think they are going to come up with a decent water solution.
Regards
Hey netwolf,
Re: India. I see you probably have never done a laser show in India. Our 64
amp 3 phase to supply the show was run across the ground over a highway.
Left to be run over by every vehicle including trucks . The local sub station
had it transformers sitting on dirt because the locals had stolen the bricks they
were sitting on to build dwellings. Along with everything else that could
be used to build dwellings or I guess probably sold for money to feed their
families. The scarry thing was none of the sub station was fenced off leaving
little kids in the area to play in and around them . And the power supply was
extremely dodgy at best. I'll try and dig up some photos if I still have them.
I have been discussing with my father my latest off beat ideas and mentioned my idea re the underwater dam and he rather than tell me why it would not work told me that there is such a venture he believes near Hong Kong . apparently they have damed a bay and use it for fresh water storage .
So there are no new ideas it seems .
Anyways it would seem if such a dam exists we should be considering how we could apply the technology in Australia.
AND that bay dam utilises the roof run off .
I have not looked on the net re this but will do so and see if I can find one.
alex
Well a morning looking at how Hong Kong
manages water leaves me thinking we should get their advice. However it seems something along the lines I suggested was not thought to be a bad idea.. still looking into it but found this.
Plover Cove Reservoir
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Plover Cove Reservoir (Traditional Chinese: 船灣淡水湖), located in northeastern New Territories, is the largest reservoir in Hong Kong in terms of area, and the second-largest in terms of volume. Its main dam was one of the largest in the world at the time of its construction, disconnecting Plover Cove from the sea.
Built in 1967, it was a former cove (bay, as the name suggests) and was a popular hiking site. One main dam and three service dams were built to shut the cove off from the sea. The cove was then drained and was converted into a fresh-water lake. Besides rain from its catchment, it also stores water imported by pipes from Dongjiang. The Bride's Pool flows into the Plover Cove Reservoir.
Well it seems the idea has been used so could we not do similar with Sydney Harbour???
Looking at the demand in Hong Kong makes our problems look small and now I think I know where the 1,000,000 engineers they turn out each year go for a job..the water works must take a few.
But shows what one can do if you are trying to do more than simply get re elected.
alex
alex
and a little more info.....
Plover Cove Reservoir, an impressive water storage facility inside Plover Cove Country Park, is renowned for its magnificent main dam. Measuring 680 ft (or 2 km) in length and some 24 hectares in area, it is Hong Kong's longest dam and the greatest structure of its kind. It is also the world's first "reservoir in the ocean" and the second largest reservoir in the territory. This imposing dam is as tall as a 9-storey building, i.e. 28 metres. Water storage capacity is 230,000,000 m3, which equals to 230 billion bottles of 1 L beverage.
The construction of Plover Cove Reservoir was prompted by sharp population growth in the 1950's. There demand for water was pressing but there was no available land to build a new reservoir. While swimming in Plover Cove one day, former Director of Water Supplies 毛謹was struck by an idea to transform the bay into a reservoir. Work commenced in 1960, and the facility was completed thirteen years later.
I think you will find the people in Hong Kong copied the idea from those in Holland. The sea wall in Holland is many times bigger and seperates the sea water from the fresh water which is then used for irrigation (and fencing, of a sort and so on). Also note in Holland they too pump out the excess water....
Essentially this is not a new idea. Would it work in Sydney, well probably, but building a recycling plant is far simpler, far more effective, and doesnt destroy the local ecosystem...
one of our local councillors here on the central coast put forward the idea of closing off the mouth of "The Entrance" lake and with the aid of a desalinator for a couple of years turn it into a fresh water lake (fed from Wyong River).
Any local could tell you that "Norah Head" on the eastern side of the lake (on the coast) traditionally has the highest rainfall in the area.
I think you will find the people in Hong Kong copied the idea from those in Holland. The sea wall in Holland is many times bigger and seperates the sea water from the fresh water which is then used for irrigation (and fencing, of a sort and so on). Also note in Holland they too pump out the excess water....
Essentially this is not a new idea. Would it work in Sydney, well probably, but building a recycling plant is far simpler, far more effective, and doesnt destroy the local ecosystem...
Cheers
Michael
Thanks for posting that advice Michael it is encouraging to hear the Dutch see value in the approach as they are rather water sensitive . Their famous myth about the fella putting his finger in the sea wall says a little I recon. .
I love hearing that my crazy ideas are not so crazy ( I have a lot of ideas and as people get sick of them I call them crazy to save them thinking of a term to describe them ) AND being presented with information that someone has tried it and done it and it has worked for them it offers me support to follow up on other crazy ideas . If I love the NET for if anything it is for being able to post an idea and to find that it has been done . Does not give me anything but joy .. good on them they made a buck whatever . it leaves me free to work on new ideas, having sortta cleaned out the accumulated mess. As well as every other problem I see in myself I am sometimes lazy and don’t want to waste time just in the interest of proving something, so it good to find such things.
If China and Holland can do it and have chosen that path maybe we should at least have a committee to look into the matter. One place has water management problems and one has that problem and water supply problems.. just maybe we could look into it as a possible alternative. There is has been a dramatic effect by newer humans on Australia but we have been changing this place just a little for 200yrs I recon, so maybe a little more changing to get it just right would be OK. AND I don’t know that nuclear power plants and desalinates are really pretty to look at .. I bet I could make a beautiful underwater dam but how could you make a desalination plant and a nuclear power station look desirable. That dam in China is a tourist attraction it is nothing short of beautiful ..but I don’t know how the Netherlands did theirs .
I would like to know the cost of a litre of desalinated water compared to the cost of a litre of stored fresh water . One offers an advantage that the cost will go down rather than to go up as will there other over time . Without the math I could not but put forward a ruff outline of possibilities before giving a solid comment on which will prove to be the most efficient method. As a simple unsupported statement I think that with a dam the cost of your water supply would go down over time as the bulk of the cost is in the building stage. with nuclear power and desalinates we have the building cost and the cost of fuel which as time goes on and supply diminishes the cheap fuel will become more expensive and as such so will the cost of the water. Petrol was a cheap way to go at the time but in time it will run out as that day draws closer the price will go up. Nuclear fuel is finite and the prospect of fission is maybe never going to happen but to make it happen will take time and money. Some one said 20 years ago we were 20 years away today we say the same ..or something sortta like that .
Thanks again that is welcome news as it offers our dry country more hope of there being alternatives to consider .
Alex
one of our local councillors here on the central coast put forward the idea of closing off the mouth of "The Entrance" lake and with the aid of a desalinator for a couple of years turn it into a fresh water lake (fed from Wyong River).
Any local could tell you that "Norah Head" on the eastern side of the lake (on the coast) traditionally has the highest rainfall in the area.
he was basically laughed at.
personally i think the idea has merit
geoff
Well there is a message there one we all know already. People love to knock things heck I do it all the time but there are many places and opportunities like that. I dont like the idea of diverting rivers inland but maybe with a East Coast Dam system our supplus could go inland and we all know we need it out there. We complain the clouds take our views away but most of us pray for rain nevertheless.. we face in effect the prospect of drinking our own sewerage.. imagine being able to boast to turists they dont get that crap here.
Well when you see another human holding another up for the object of a joke I recon we could ask why..the poly backed down because he was laughted at..I dont think so he did the numbers and took into account the green vote maybe.
I recon the idea has merit otherwise I would not bother with it.
alex
I think you missed my point. Why build an expensive sea wall, dam, or desalination plant, when you can simply recycle (ie clean, not desalinate) the water you are already collecting. A new dam (however its built) or desalination plant will destroy the local environment. Water treatment is far more cost effective, and better for the environment (both the local, and also from stopping all the crap going into the sea), and it too is a tried and tested method. Many countries all around the world use it, if you have travelled outside Australia you have probably already drunk recycled water etc....
As for the visual attraction between the Dutch and Chinese wall / dam / whatever you wish to call it, well I think the Dutch have it hands down, especially in tullip season. But I guess thats personal oppinion.
I was thinking of the effect on demand if say 50% of all buildings could collect the rain water, which maybe would not be suitable to drink but would work on gardens paths and cars
. Even if the capacity averaged only 1000 litres it would ease the demand one would think. But thinking this would not be cost effective er efficient really $ ers spent to water stored, I thought we need more dams
.Not welcomed by anybody usually in a catchement area... resuming ones home to put up dams does not win favour
. Then it hit me why not place an “underwater dam” somewhere up Sydney Harbour
. Sydney's very own Watergate.
. Now dont go out and buy shares in er a membrane company 
. And the power supply was 
but good
