I just dont know......

ianB (Ian) · #1 05-03-2014, 09:54 PM

Had an opportunity to use my scope this evening, I only used if from my balcony as my right leg is giving me pain and im tired, hence quick look.
Now the question is am I expecting too much? If you read on please tell me.

So from my balcony, about 200 mtrs from the beach with an on shore breeze I set up my Nexstar 6SE and had a look at Jupiter ( only had my scope for 2 months and this is my 3rd viewing, been cloud cover for weeks ) the sky only had a few clouds here and there and accordingnto SkippySky.com seeing conditions were 7 and Transparency was 5 to 6.
According to the Pickering scale http://www.damianpeach.com/pickering.htm
I would estimate that seeing was 5 to 6.
My collimation looks good to me.

With my 25mm I saw Jupiter as a nice clear disk and saw the two main bands which looked a light brownish to pink colour, the moons looked like stars flickering and not sharp pin points.

With my X-Cel LX 9mm I could not see any more detail than than the 25mm and Jupiter appeared somewhat blurry, fuzzy, not a sharp image at all.

I experienced the results with my other EP's 20mm 6mm and barlow X2

The Moon looked good in my 25mm 20mm and 9mm LX

Now I appreciate that the higher you go in mag the dimmer the view, but is it normal to have these fuzzy views? Or should you expect the image of Jupiter to be crisp in the 9mm LX?

I must say overall I am unhappy about this as the EP's are expensive and I really thought that I would get a crisp image with the celestron X Cel LX.

So can you please tell me is this normal ? If not what could be the problem?

With better viewing conditions will jupiter ( and mars etc ) still be somewhat blurry?

Any comments will be a help.

Thanks,

ian

brian nordstrom (As avatar) · #2 05-03-2014, 10:03 PM

Hi Ian , the 9mm will give about 170x in your C6 ? or there abouts , that's getting into the higher magnifications in any scope .

You say 'From my balcony ' , is it a roofed one ? , if so the heat from the house will be escaping out under it disturbing the seeing a lot and the scales you quote here wont mean a thing , sorry to say .

..

If you wait a long time with the doors shut and curtins pulled the seeing will settle or get out under the night sky .

Your C6 should handle 200x on a good night , great scopes and I don't think its the 9mm at fault here , but the environment you are viewing from .

Brian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianB

Had an opportunity to use my scope this evening, I only used if from my balcony as my right leg is giving me pain and im tired, hence quick look.
Now the question is am I expecting too much? If you read on please tell me.

So from my balcony, about 200 mtrs from the beach with an on shore breeze I set up my Nexstar 6SE and had a look at Jupiter ( only had my scope for 2 months and this is my 3rd viewing, been cloud cover for weeks ) the sky only had a few clouds here and there and accordingnto SkippySky.com seeing conditions were 7 and Transparency was 5 to 6.
According to the Pickering scale http://www.damianpeach.com/pickering.htm
I would estimate that seeing was 5 to 6.
My collimation looks good to me.

With my 25mm I saw Jupiter as a nice clear disk and saw the two main bands which looked a light brownish to pink colour, the moons looked like stars flickering and not sharp pin points.

With my X-Cel LX 9mm I could not see any more detail than than the 25mm and Jupiter appeared somewhat blurry, fuzzy, not a sharp image at all.

I experienced the results with my other EP's 20mm 6mm and barlow X2

The Moon looked good in my 25mm 20mm and 9mm LX

Now I appreciate that the higher you go in mag the dimmer the view, but is it normal to have these fuzzy views? Or should you expect the image of Jupiter to be crisp in the 9mm LX?

I must say overall I am unhappy about this as the EP's are expensive and I really thought that I would get a crisp image with the celestron X Cel LX.

So can you please tell me is this normal ? If not what could be the problem?

With better viewing conditions will jupiter ( and mars etc ) still be somewhat blurry?

Any comments will be a help.

Thanks,

ian

Wavytone · #3 05-03-2014, 10:07 PM

Ian,

200 metres from a beach isn't likely to be much good for observing - I've tried when my mum had a house right behind Avalon beach, and the seeing was consistently awful. If there's a sea breeze you've got cool saturated air coming in from the water mixing with warmer dry air over the land and the turbulence - and effect on seeing - is pretty bad. Your 6" scope is big enough to show this.

You really do need to get away from the coast, and away from major sources of heat particularly buildings where hot western walls and roof will release heat for hours, creating thermals and turbulence.

There is another issue too. Salty humid air is bad for scopes, particularly the mirror coatings, and it will leave a sticky film on your optics - corrector, eyepieces etc that has to be wiped off.

ianB (Ian) · #4 05-03-2014, 10:14 PM

Thanks Brian,
Yes my balcony door was open on and off and my viewing was only for an hour, starting at arround 19:15, at that time Jupiter was about 40 deg.

Also there is a three story unit across the road from me and Jupiter was just slightly off to the left from it, but as Jupiter was rather high I did not think the heat from that building would be too much of a problem, but maybe it was?

I just hope that when conditions are good and I go out to a site, my images will be clearer and not look blurry.
As I said thebmoon looked good and ilt was in a darker region away from lights and buildings, so as you say that may be the reason why mynview was not good, at least I hope so.

ianB (Ian) · #5 05-03-2014, 10:16 PM

Thank you Wavytone, yes I can see that may also be an issue.

brian nordstrom (As avatar) · #6 05-03-2014, 10:22 PM

Thanks Ian , yes as said by Wavytone and me the observing location you are using is not the best , but its sometimes all we have so have to live with it .

My advise is keep the magnifictions down to about 100x at home and if you can get out somewhere where its better , then go for the higher ones , as I say your scope is easily capable of 200x plus on a good night .

The moon is very forgiving of bad seeing , being so large it does not show that like a small planet will .

Have you joined a local astronomy club yet ? this will help you no end .

.

Brian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianB

Thanks Brian,
Yes my balcony door was open on and off and my viewing was only for an hour, starting at arround 19:15, at that time Jupiter was about 40 deg.

Also there is a three story unit across the road from me and Jupiter was just slightly off to the left from it, but as Jupiter was rather high I did not think the heat from that building would be too much of a problem, but maybe it was?

I just hope that when conditions are good and I go out to a site, my images will be clearer and not look blurry.
As I said thebmoon looked good and ilt was in a darker region away from lights and buildings, so as you say that may be the reason why mynview was not good, at least I hope so.

ianB (Ian) · #7 05-03-2014, 10:30 PM

Sad to to the nearest club is too far away from me, there used to be one here some years back but alas no more.
When conditions are good I'll go for a drive to a good site and have a go.

Thanks tor your input, it gives me hope.
Looks like I was being too optimistic given my location . :-)

raymo · #8 05-03-2014, 11:38 PM

On top of all the factors previously mentioned, closed tube scopes like
your 6SE take a long time to equalise to the ambient temperature, and
should be put outside at least an hour before being used. The planets are
especially vulnerable to poor seeing, and your experience with them will
vary from night to night. Occasionally you will get a night when you will see all sorts of detail, and these nights are what keep you coming back
for more.
If the moons twinkled, your local conditions were clearly not the best.
They should be solid pinpricks, and at high magnification should show
some slight dimension. With higher mag not only is the image dimmer,
but is also less sharp, regardless of eyepiece quality; simple physics.
Many newbies are disappointed with their first experiences, but with
more experience your seeing ability improves, so soldier on.
raymo

Regulus (Trevor) · #9 05-03-2014, 11:45 PM

Ian it is very possible the tall building over the road was radiating stored heat and effecting the view. A pair of Binos focused on the building edge or on something behind it may well have shown a waviness to the atmosphere around it.
I had the same problem tonight with Jupiter but that is because it is so low from down here at 41deg South, and it is off over the ocean too with about a kilometre of houses and street releasing heat into the air.. The best view was in the Wide 25mm ep and anything stronger was a disappointment.
I know that most viewing from my verandah is going to be a bit disappointing because I am in town (small town but they have managed to bitumen it thoroughly and over illuminate). Just one of those things.
Trevor

ianB (Ian) · #10 06-03-2014, 12:22 AM

Thanks all for your comments, its good to get feedback from your experience and knowledge.

astroron (Ron) · #11 06-03-2014, 02:15 AM

Hi Ian, as others have said here,there are a number of factors effecting your viewing and all well explaned.
The seeing wasn't that great tonight untill about 10:30 here but even then it was just average.
Higher mag in a smaller scope will degrade the view taking in all the factors mentioned by the other guys.
Look forward to you getting better and you getting out here and giving your scope a real good workout under a dark sky.
Cheers

ianB (Ian) · #12 06-03-2014, 02:21 AM

Thanks Ron,
Looks like you are a late nighter like myself.

astroron (Ron) · #13 06-03-2014, 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianB

Thanks Ron,
Looks like you are a late nighter like myself.

I have just come in as the mist has come over

I am going to hang around for a while to see if it clears
before I go to bed.
I am hoping to catch Comet Lovejoy before it gets too faint.
Not liking my chances at the moment.

Cheers

ianB (Ian) · #14 06-03-2014, 02:35 AM

All the best for Lovejoy, im about to turn in.
Nite.

astroron (Ron) · #15 06-03-2014, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ianB

All the best for Lovejoy, im about to turn in.
Nite.

Night,
Goodby to mr Lovejoy tonight,completely misted in.

Cheers

OzStarGazer · #16 06-03-2014, 06:59 AM

This has happened to me too because magnification doesn't only magnify planets/objects but also turbulences, that's why we need perfectly clear nights for perfect viewing (which are becoming very rare in NSW). Keep watching and good luck!

Camelopardalis (Dunk) · #17 06-03-2014, 11:14 AM

The 9mm Xcel LX is well matched to the scope and gives a generally useful magnification in the 6SE. I used to find that my 6SE cooled quickly (and I used to live in a much cooler climate than here!), so it sounds to me like the seeing was poor and/or the local thermals, as other guys have mentioned.

The 6SE was my first scope and I had great views of Jupiter, Mars and eventually Saturn with that scope and it'll show you plenty on a decent night

julianh72 (Julian) · #18 06-03-2014, 12:30 PM

I thought it might help to reinforce the comments made by the regular forum contributors, from a complete newbie's perspective.

I'm actually a "proxy" for my Dad, who bought a Meade 8" LX-90 ACF a couple of months ago - a bit bigger than your scope, but comparable in build and performance etc. Weather in Brisbane has been pretty awful for sky viewing since he bought it, but we had our first good night last night. (Well as good as can be expected in suburban Brisbane, with glare from the City, sodium street lights, neighbour's units, etc.)

I arrived at his place at 7:30, set-up the scope, and our first target was Jupiter. It looked good in the standard Meade 26 mm eyepiece (sharp disk, clear bands, 3 moons clearly visible), but was bigger but markedly fuzzier with his higher power eyepieces. (He got a set of Orion eyepieces: http://sirius-optics.com/shop/index....roducts_id=192).

We weren't sure whether it was poor technique / collimation (definitely a possibility for newbies like us!), 2nd rate eyepieces, or what, but we put the 26 mm Meade back in, and hunted down a few more targets, tinkered with attaching a camera, etc. (Off-topic, but the Bahtinov focussing mask that I cut from a sheet of cardboard worked a treat! And the Go-To mount worked beautifully, too - dial up a target, and Bingo! Right on target! Compared to our last experience with a manual 4 1/2" Newtonian scope many years ago, this almost seems like cheating!)

At about 10:30, I was just about to pack up for the night, and we finished by going back to Jupiter. (The main aim was to see just how good the Go-To alignment worked after a few hours of scanning around the heavens. It was perfect - dead centre!) Even though Jupiter was by now significantly lower in the sky, and had moved further into the light haze from the CBD, it was noticeably sharper than before. We popped the Orion 10 mm and 7.5 mm eyepieces in, and the higher magnification image was MUCH sharper than before.

I can only assume that the main differentiator was that the scope had reached thermal equilibrium and was therefore performing better; and I guess the whole atmosphere is typically more stable a bit later at night, because if anything, the light haze and height in the sky were worse for the second viewing than the first. (I'm sure that this not news for the regular star-gazers, but it was stunningly apparent to this pair of newbies!)

Our learning is that we will set up the scope outside as early as possible in future, and try to plan our night's viewing such that we will try to choose the ones of greatest interest for later in the session. (Although of course, if they're visible early, and it looks like there may be a chance of clouding over, we'll probably still start with them, and have a second go later, if the opportunity still remains!)

ianB (Ian) · #19 06-03-2014, 03:49 PM

Thanks to everyone.
and it was interesting to hear your comments Julian as I am just up the rd from you, so to speak.

Astro_Bot · #20 06-03-2014, 04:06 PM

Seeing in Brisbane was quite good last night, at least out near the bay. Between about 10pm and 2am, it was very good, though not perfect - there seemed to be at least one semi-turbulent layer up there, as seeing would go from good to very good and back again every few minutes in different parts of the sky and there were some clouds doing their wispy appearing/disappearing act from time to time. Another supporting sign was the dew and the "relative" cold - not especially humid by the forecast, but a lot of dew and I was rugged up - that sky felt cold and my 'scope was plenty cold by midnight.

The views were enjoyable and I got some good snaps of Jupiter, Mars and Saturn. I will see if I can extract any decent details from the images ...

I agree that 'scope cool down time is vital. Even though I've been doing visual astronomy for a while now, and thought that 2 hours of cool down was plenty, I've recently found (I think) that the for good photography, even longer cool down times improve performance. In fact, the longer/colder the better.