National amateur telescope?

[xelasnave]

There was a subdivision in a dark place in the USA with covenants to suit astronomers..90 sites and they were snapped up by astronomers .. I think so many of the sites are remote control observatories but I am not sure..but even if remote as already noted you need a caretaker and really someone who may have to open up a dome and fix something...

But taking photos in a dark site whilst living in the city is now available...
AND I expect if doing research photos would be good...
I have found that I can get a fast net link up home so I am going to work to a remote set up and see if I can make it work from Sydney.. but it wont happen over night...

I think the views here have been very good and positive and it will be interesting to see if anything developes and the final form it may take..

But as it is still raining it is hard to think astronomy will ever be available to me again...
alex

[abellhunter]

G'day Andrew,

LOL! i like your straight shooting...... thank you for all your thoughtful comments.

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Re: "no one seems interested in such a proposition..."

Well, that's why i'm here, to see if there IS anyone with the desire to help a fellow amateur astronomer build a quality amateur observatory in the southern hemisphere.
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Re: "most just don't seem to understand what a large aperture can be used for..."

Good point. As you stated there are GREAT possibilities here.
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Re: "New Zealand astronomy....."

i've had some talk with NZ and have had good feedback.... even a few who even offered me a place to build. The only thing about NZ is: it's too far south for my taste. i love -15 thru' -25 the best. i want to see ALL THE SKY.
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Re: "Serious research work...."

i'm all about freedom, if i team up with a group, i feel that anyone in that group can use their time to do what they like. If they feel drawn to M42, so be it. If they want to do photometry or any other high end research program, go for it!
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Re: "Really the only way is to show these groups is to expose them to the capabilities that amateurs can achieve, and be involved in a serious multi-observer observational endeavour."

Great point Andrew, this is it in a nut shell.
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Re: "Again, the question remains... If you have a large aperture, what would you ACTUALLY do with it? Answer that, and the size of telescope and the type of mount is determined."

Well i own a 28 incher. The stuff i love to do is; hunt down globulars in M31 or the stellar associations in M33. Explore galaxy clusters, faint planetary nebulas, and then just get MIND BLOWING views of the show pieces!

You see, i am ALWAYS 10 years behind, so i am an old school visual observer who, when all is said and done just love sitting under the Milky Way from a pristine dark site and melt.

BUT, on the other side i have often hoped that i would find someone with say, CCD interest and have them get my old C-14 up to speed. You see,
i am a Zen guy, i don't want to be stuck behind a computer (how ironic!) when i could be in "real time".

[foot note]

having been into astronomy for 30 years, i love all of it. Every scope has it's object and when we look back at the hobby..... all i can say is: what a long strange trip its been!
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Re: "I think there is NO amateur group in Australia at the moment is capable of taking up the challenge of such an endeavour...."

Bummer. Well, with 30K+ worth of scopes and a willingness to build the observatory i've had some real good feedback in just one month here.
So, never say never. i know something will get built and the 28" will be
exploring the Southern skies soon. Heck, with cheap, dark land in the
outback, with my container observatory idea..... oh it will happen. The
only question is will i be out there with just the dingoes or will there be like minds enjoying this vision too?

See post #35 & #38 on this thread
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Re: The self-professed "Revolutionary Bum",
Andrew

LOL! Right-on, i'm with ya!

Lance aka "abellhunter"

http://www.anzaobservatory.com

[Aussie Pete]

Originally Posted by kljucd1

Hi,

Is anything like this currently being done around the world?

Daniel...

Well, actually. Yes.

Pete

Had to answer the guy Mike hehe

[AJames]

Sorry to revamp this tread again, but anyone interested in forming a National Amateur Observatory might like to use this information to work towards such a future potential.

I have just read an interesting article entitled "The Centarion 18 telescope of the Wide Observatory", which appears at the Arxiv Site, which has been submitted for publication in the Astrophysics and Space Science in February 2008. (See pdf file; http://arxiv.org/pdf/0802.0821 )
This observatory, produces observations that are made in the most cases, remotely. As said in the introduction, the purpose was to ;

"The operation of the C18 is now automatic, requiring only start-up at the beginning of a night and close-down at dawn. The observations are mostly performed remotely from the TelAviv campus or even from the observer’s home. The entire facility was erected for a component cost of about 70k$ and a labour investment of a total of one man-year.
We describe three types of projects undertaken with this new facility: the measurement of asteroid light variability with the purpose of determining physical parameters and binarity, the following up of transiting extrasolar planets, and the study of AGN variability. The successful implementation of the C18 demonstrates the viability of small telescopes in an age of huge light-collectors, provided the operation of such facilities is very efficient."

This is a good read for anyone seriously considering such an endeavours - privately or through your local astronomical society.

There are several information sites presented through this document. Oe of interest, which shows the potential of remote observatories appears at
ACP Observatory Control Software; (Ie. http://acp.dc3.com/index2.html )
There are some videos showing how such systems work at this site;
http://forums.dc3.com/videos/videos.html
An slightly more detail example of astronomical imaging can be downloaded at; http://forums.dc3.com/videos/ACP/Sim...implePlan.html
(There are other examples of such software, but my selection here is merely for illustration. It should not be construed by me as any kind of endorsement - as every thing else here.)

All this proves is a National Astronomical Observatory is indeed possible. The problem is the paradigms adopted by the astronomical societies in this country. I make no apology, especially the Top 4 Societies in this country, who have the sufficient resources to enable such a dream to be fulfilled. However, without the will to accept such adoptions, there is little chance of such endeavours being available for amateurs in this country. I know (personally), there is much resistance to such changes - which IMO is very detrimental to amateur astronomy because it does not allow the real potential of its members and the science (or education) to contribute proudly or meaningfully to Australian astronomy.

If you are a member of an Astronomical Society, perhaps now is the time to challenge the Committees to begin recommending investigation to fulfilling such potential options and show some leadership.

The present state of Navel searching here is no a good enough reason anymore for the complete lack of action.

Regards,
Andrew

COMMENT: Cloud and Weather Sensors One of the earlier points that I made in this thread was observational surveillance of observing sites. There is available, a commercial sky sensor, which is ideal for night use. (Presently not supported by the BOM) One of these is The Boltwood Cloud Sensor II, (http://www.cyanogen.com/products/cloud_main.htm), which is about $AU2000. This would be a worthwhile investment for the individual observations site by solitary amateurs or Societies. Such a device could be useful for site testing, and could be used as a sensor for a remote observatory. A review of such a system is at;
http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=1261

Disclaimer: The examples here is merely for illustration. It should not be construed by me as any kind of endorsement - as everything else here.

[bojan]

More about city lights...
This reminds me of a slogan used here in Vic "Speed kills"... Which leads to speed limit enforcement on freeways and of course fines if the speed limit is breached. And all this is here despite the facts that in Germany, for example, there is NO speed limit at all on Autobahns.. If your car can speed with 500km/h it is OK. Nobody will force you to slow down.
And, there is no statistic that points to a conclusion that there is any more accidents there than here. Yes, when it happens that's it but still..
The same applies to city illumination. It is a mind-set, and what we really need are amateur astronomers in city councils....

Edit:
Of course, by no means I am trying to say here that we should speed on our roads in the inhabited areas. I put that just as an example of how useful may be to put forward the examples of other cities and countries.

[AJames]

Originally Posted by AJames

All this proves is a National Astronomical Observatory is indeed possible. The problem is the paradigms adopted by the astronomical societies in this country. I make no apology, especially the Top 4 Societies in this country, who have the sufficient resources to enable such a dream to be fulfilled. However, without the will to accept such adoptions, there is little chance of such endeavours being available for amateurs in this country. I know (personally), there is much resistance to such changes - which IMO is very detrimental to amateur astronomy because it does not allow the real potential of its members and the science (or education) to contribute proudly or meaningfully to Australian astronomy.

After reading posts elsewhere on this forum. IDIOT !! I now realise now where my thinking is probably wrong.

Never dawned on me that other COMMERCIAL forces were in operation in this avenue of astronomy - and are on the rise - even some being deeply embedded within the context of the Australian "Amateur" Society and Star Party scene.

No wonder some of these "groups" don't want to follow this logical course of action.

Obviously having an "Amateur National Observatory" would be not in the interests of these kinds of individuals. Ie. Cutting into their profits. Ah! the ye ol' profit motive again... So much for "non-profit organisations" operating guise of members best interest.

Clearly they are the problem not the solution.

Apologies for being so stupid!

Andrew

Question : Are these others who make profit from other amateurs really "amateur astronomers" or should they be called vendors - for want of a better word - or something else? Ferengi?

[bojan]

It is very hard to define "amateur" astronomer today..
In times when I was beginning with this amazing hobby, it was assumed that people will build their own instruments because to buy them was simply incomprehensible, for two reasons: price (of equipment) and pride (of individual or group or club).
The same thing applied to radio-amateurs (ham-radio amateurs).
But today, everything is commercialized. Even pride.

[AJames]

Originally Posted by AJames

Are these others who make profit from other amateurs really "amateur astronomers" or should they be called vendors - for want of a better word - or something else? Ferengi?

Just some food for additional thought, where the truth lies in some of the aphorisms of the "Ferengi Rules of Acquisition"

Rule 47 : "Never trust a man wearing a better suit than your own."

Rule 208: "Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer."

Rule 285 : "No good deed ever goes unpunished."

Rule 299 : "After you've exploited someone, it never hurts to thank them. That way, it's easier to exploit them next time."

Rule : ? : "When the messenger comes to appropriate your profits... kill the messenger."

But the best by far here is Rule 75:

"Home is where the heart is, but the stars are made of latinum." *

Andrew

Note See [ http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Fere...of_Acquisition ]
For those who don't know, latinum is a rare silver liquid used as currency of the Ferengi

[Louwai (Bryan)]

Originally Posted by ballaratdragons

Andrew is correct in his pessimism of many Astro clubs. It is true of many non-astro clubs too.

I was a member of an Astro club which eventually drove everyone away!!!!!!
I used the mistakes from that experience to make sure our club does not follow the same path.

Dictatorships also happen.
I refused to be President of the club I founded. I took on the secretary role.

I was nominated as the President this year, but only coz no-one else wanted it

But the bitter experience from the past has taught me (and a few others) to make sure our club is a bunch of observers/imagers who get together and have a great time. No politics, just looking up (or at a monitor).

We certainly aren't in it for the money. After several Camps, we finally made enough to buy a $500 Scope and mount off ebay!!!! Beware of the 'Financial Monster'. Some clubs have got their acts together and enjoy club nights and respect their fellow members views and ideas. But I agree, many clubs will self destuct. But not all.

Exactly one of the reasons I don't frequent MPAS anymore Ken.
I've been there several times. All but 2 of these visits were on their public viewing nights & as such I was happy to help them make money for the club by allowing my scope to be used for the public.
I was late with my club fees (as I am with SV) & there was one individual who is well positioned in the MPAS, that was very vocal about stamping out the non-paying users of their facility. All the while directing his comments at me.
Considering that 95% of my visits were on their public viewing nights & I was helping them to make money for the club, I thought this was a bit uncalled for.
Anyway, due to his comments I've decided to NOT pay my fees this year & not return to MPAS.