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  #61  
Old 17-02-2012, 04:18 PM
Scopie (Brad)
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Originally Posted by clive milne View Post
I personally think it is flawed, but for what it is worth here is an explanation of the economic logic underpinning the carbon tax: ... It might be a nice idea in principle, but I personally think it will be ineffective at reducing GHG emissions for the simple reason that people seldom respond to this sort of approach.
It is also dangerous in as much as it implies that if we return to 1990 level emissions, the job is done.
Not only that but it does nothing at all to address the explosion of coal consumption. Look at how green we are! No pollution in Australia, wonderful power generation... and yet our coal exports to other countries have grown by vast amounts in the last decade alone and our LNG exports are set to do the same. If we're exporting it then someone is burning it and they're NOT doing it cleanly either.
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  #62  
Old 17-02-2012, 04:33 PM
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I have to have A/C, because it is too dangerous to leave the windows open at night to let air in. We left our side gate open once, wont do that again
Sorry to pick on you mate, but you should think outside the box. Security screens are a lot cheaper to run than AC.
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  #63  
Old 17-02-2012, 04:36 PM
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The trick to getting some meaningful action from a politician is to imbue them with sense that their survival depends on serving your best interests.
Awesome!!!

Bah I hope this smoke haze buggers off. I just bought a 16 inch dob and I'm hanging for first light.
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  #64  
Old 17-02-2012, 06:00 PM
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Unfortunately due to medical reasons air-conditoning is a necessity in our household

Most of the coal and gas we produce goes to China and they are very carbon conscious

If it wasn't sold by us someone else would do it
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  #65  
Old 17-02-2012, 07:55 PM
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Most of the coal and gas we produce goes to China and they are very carbon conscious
Hey Trevor, I don't agree with this statement. I know for a fact that the Chinese vent vast quantities of CO2 directly from gas fields - so that's a massive source of carbon emission before they generate a single erg of power from the methane itself. Those kinds of activities aren't even measured by the two references below demonstrating that China emits more CO2 than the next two largest emitters combined:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...xide_emissions
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...75728120110608

Or you could try this one:

http://edgar.jrc.ec.europa.eu/news_d...def_19sept.pdf

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It indicates that not only have emissions increased substantially in 2010 in China and India - by 10% and 9% mainly due to a similar increase in coal consumption - but also in most of the other major economies such as the European Union, the USA, Japan and Russia. Since 2002, an accelerated global annual CO2 growth rate is seen as a consequence of the industrialisation of China. China’s economy grew at a much faster pace and the global share of coal increased from 26% to 30%. In 2010 emissions from global coal consumption increased by more than 7%, which is the fastest global growth since 2003, as China accounts for about two-thirds of the increase.
In my opinion China doesn't give a rats proverbial about CO2 or any other form of pollution. But pointing our fingers at them and saying "naughty, naughty" is the tail wagging the dog- they're only doing it because the western world demands those cheap ipads and other disposable goodies.

Fair enough re: medical reasons for running AC! Besides, I have AC too, though it is evaporative.
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  #66  
Old 17-02-2012, 09:13 PM
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my definition of an "expert" X is an unknown factor and a "pert" is a drip under pressure.
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  #67  
Old 18-02-2012, 05:45 AM
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per head China produces a lot less CO2 then us, that's the point.
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  #68  
Old 18-02-2012, 10:03 AM
clive milne
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Originally Posted by Scopie View Post
Hey Trevor, I don't agree with this statement. I know for a fact that the Chinese vent vast quantities of CO2 directly from gas fields - so that's a massive source of carbon emission before they generate a single erg of power from the methane itself.
Do you have a reference for this Brad?
Separating CO2 from methane is not a trivial undertaking so I'd be surprised if this is done at the well head.
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  #69  
Old 18-02-2012, 10:53 AM
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Most of the coal and gas we produce goes to China and they are very carbon conscious
Brad didn't you pick up on the the sarcasm by the smiley at the end of the sentence
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  #70  
Old 18-02-2012, 02:17 PM
Scopie (Brad)
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Originally Posted by KenGee View Post
per head China produces a lot less CO2 then us, that's the point.
Simply saying: oh, China is ok because they produce less CO2 per head is completely irrelevant when they produce 50% more than any other country in the world. CO2 doesn't respect national boundaries. What is relevant is that theoretically it should be easier for the greater polluters per capita to reduce their emissions, however, having been to China I'd say there is far more room for improvemet there than here.
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  #71  
Old 18-02-2012, 02:18 PM
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Brad didn't you pick up on the the sarcasm by the smiley at the end of the sentence
No sir I did not! Apologies
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  #72  
Old 18-02-2012, 02:57 PM
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Do you have a reference for this Brad?
Separating CO2 from methane is not a trivial undertaking so I'd be surprised if this is done at the well head.
No its done from the gas gathering facility not the wellhead. Because the facility is offshore its even less economically appealling to recompress the CO2 and take it off- so they just vent it. It's actually a common practise globally, however, in many western nations they've put a stop to it since people started worrying about carbon. The only reference I have for it is I work with people who have been there. Here's an example from the Netherlands:

http://www.co2-cato.org/cato-2/locat...ection-project

Quote:
It has been producing natural gas since 1987 with a relatively high CO2 content. After extracting the natural gas, CO2 is removed from the natural gas.
Until recently the CO2 was vented, but since 2004 it is partly injected into the gas field, at a depth of approximately 4000 m. Up till 2010 approximately 80.000 t CO2 has been re-injected.
So the field has been producing from 1987 to 2004 and venting at least 13,000t of CO2 per year until they started injecting it (remember they say PARTLY, not mostly, predominantly or some other positive word- so how much is still vented?). As you know hydrocarbon fields produce at higher rates initially and decline naturally over time unles they are facilities constrained so initial CO2 venting may have been much higher.

Another chinese project that vents stripped CO2 to the atmosphere can be found here:
http://www.onepetro.org/mslib/servle...=SPE-138399-PA

By the way, Dong Fang produces 24x10^8 m^3 of methane gas a year from a field that is over 19% CO2. All that CO2 is vented to the atmosphere- they are only just discussing the possibility of using some of it for other industrial processes. That's 5.2 million tons a year from a single project. If it were a country it would be 115th on the list for CO2 production circa 2008.

A 2009 discussion about how carbon capture and storage needs a jump-start in china can be found here:

http://www.nrdc.org/international/ch.../fchinaccs.pdf

Quote:
The China Power Investment Corporation has proposed to
build an IGCC facility in Langfang (Beijing area) aiming to capture
8 percent of the CO2 from the syngas produced by two 488 MWe
IGCC units.
So much for the other 92%. Basically they are saying it will cost them $20 per tonne to sequester and they don't want to pay it and raise the price of energy so they need to find a way to make money off it before they will stop venting it. tick tock.
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  #73  
Old 18-02-2012, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by clive milne View Post
Do you have a reference for this Brad?
Separating CO2 from methane is not a trivial undertaking so I'd be surprised if this is done at the well head.

Not difficult at all, just take a sample do little gas chromatography with the correct column will allow seperation though there are other ways of detecting CO2 concentration and removing it on a large scale which the gas chromatagraph cannot do.

http://www.newpointgas.com/naturalgas_carbondioxide.php


On the Burrup gas coming in from the Rankin platforms is closely monitored.


Mark
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  #74  
Old 19-02-2012, 10:16 PM
clive milne
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On the Burrup gas coming in from the Rankin platforms is closely monitored.
Funny you should mention it... I worked as an analyser technician for quite a few years. The chromat's and (NDIR) CO2 analysers on the Burrup are amongst those I commissioned and calibrated during Woodside's stage 2 expansion back in 1988 through 1989.

Small world hey?

Last edited by clive milne; 20-02-2012 at 12:03 AM.
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  #75  
Old 20-02-2012, 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by clive milne View Post
Funny you should mention it... I worked as an analyser technician for quite a few years. The chromat's and (NDIR) CO2 analysers on the Burrup are amongst those I commissioned and calibrated during Woodside's stage 2 expansion back in 1988 through 1989.

Small world hey?
Sure is, I was there from Nov 84 through Oct 88 but on the construction side of things. Didn't finish my Chem degree until a couple of years later. We built the second stage of the project so you must have been there at the end to finish up.

Mark
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  #76  
Old 20-02-2012, 02:36 PM
clive milne
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDpGdC3HNas
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