#21  
Old 21-04-2011, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by NatalieR View Post
Morning all,
Kistuna - thanks so much for your list of information. We ordered the Backyard Astronomer's book last night through Fishpond.com.au (around $32 including free postage). When I get the telescope I'll be sure to get the eyepiece as well. That EP looks like something to go on the shopping list as well.


Thanks once again everyone. I'm going to ring up and place an order today - still tossing up between the 8" and the 10"

Nat
Yep, its a good book. make sure you got the 3rd edition or later though!

As for choosing between an 8 and a 10, I really do recommend having a look through both (side by side if you can) to see the difference, both in your suburban viewing area and at your 'dream' site. This will allow you to get an idea of what you can regularly expect to see in each scope.

There's no doubt that you'll see more in a 10 inch, but I promise you that lugging a 10 around can be awkward (in hindsight, perhaps *I* should have gotten the 8 incher instead). That's why I suggest having a look through both, that way you can decide whether you want to have to deal with the extra size/mass of it.
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  #22  
Old 21-04-2011, 09:05 AM
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The book is definately the 3rd edition (thanks for pointing out the ed. yesterday).

Point taken with the lugability of the 10" v's the 8". Might end up making a decision the scientific way - flipping a coin

Nat
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  #23  
Old 21-04-2011, 09:14 AM
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Don't flip a coin yet Natalie
Just read my response first. Then flip.
I'm working on it now.
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  #24  
Old 21-04-2011, 09:18 AM
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Go for it... no one has mentioned it yet that I am aware of but a nice free bit of software is Stellarium it will (once set up for your location) show you what is above you and it is designed for mid sized scopes so what it shows you can see (from a dark site).
Brian
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  #25  
Old 21-04-2011, 09:21 AM
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It's ok Suzy - I'm having another cuppa.

I just spoke to hubby and said "What if the 10" turns out to be too big" - he said he'd build us an observatory in the backyard for the big one and get a smaller scope for us to pull out and use on an ad hoc basis.

The sticking point in the thinking at the moment is the "you might be able to see galaxies with the 10" ... I've got to be honest and say that's pretty alluring. Even just the possibility of seeing one.
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Old 21-04-2011, 09:23 AM
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Might I suggest that the choice over an 8 or a 10 could swing on which one will get you the most options and accessories you want for the best price.

Mind you flipping a coin has worked well for me in the past.
Brian
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  #27  
Old 21-04-2011, 09:24 AM
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Brian - we downloaded Stellarium a few weeks ago and have it calibrated for here. Late last night I popped outside with the bino's to see what was around. Low cloud and lots of light pollution but I noticed a star that I hadn't seen before (either middle aged dementia or I've not looked out that way or a different season or something!)...came inside and checked out what it was with Stellarium. Fooled around a bit with changing the max magnitude of what you can see - still plenty for us to discover even on not so great viewing nights.

Nat
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  #28  
Old 21-04-2011, 09:33 AM
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Ok, I am an avid galaxy hunter and I use an 8" LB. There are literally thousands upon thousands of galaxies you will see with an 8.

However if you are talking about seeing incredible detail in galaxies... that is just not going to happen with an 8 or a 10 or even a 20.

M-31, lots of detail including at least 1 large cluster, Triangle galaxy, some detail. Hamburger and Sombrero give interesting detail but most are just fuzzy balls of cotton.

Sorry about that but if you look at records from people who have completed or even attempted the H-400 an awful lot of the records are simply found NGC //// averted vision or very averted vision or it was just there. Rarely do you find a in depth description.

Consider that John Herschel caught @350 galaxies in the Carina region with his 18" scope. And he did not see an awful lot of detail in m any of them.
Brian
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  #29  
Old 21-04-2011, 09:36 AM
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ARGH - you've just made it harder! I didn't expect to see detail - the tip of an arm in a spiral would be nice...but if it's not going to happen with either then we're probably better off with the 8".
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  #30  
Old 21-04-2011, 10:41 AM
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As I said, sorry but for the vast majority of galaxies there will not be a great deal of detail.

However, he says with a wink and a nod... hubby has already said get the 8 for now and I will build an observatory for the big one.

There are set-ups that will show you lots of detail... but they require lots of money.

In Canada owning a sail boat has often been compared to standing naked in a cold shower and tearing up a $20 bill every 2 minutes. Astronomy is much like that too.

If you go to the following link you will find a data base of photos and descriptions of most of the NGC. Often there will be 2 or 3 descriptions using different size scopes. You might find it helpful.

http://ngcicproject.org/

Brian
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  #31  
Old 21-04-2011, 10:49 AM
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Natalie, It's best you take your daughter (unless you've already done so) to an astro supply shop and get her to stand next to a 10" dob. I think the sheer size and weight will be overwhelming for her. But you would be the best judge of that of course.
But I'm really coming from the point of view if she has to move the scope around the yard to view things (move to dodge trees etc). That's where the 10" is going to be an issue I think. Even if it's on wheels.

Both my 6" and 10" have and had wheels attached to them. Even with the wheels, going over uneven grass etc, its a bit heavy/wobbly and awkward. The guys might actually laugh at me on here when I say this, but to be perfectly honest, with my 10", I fear I'm going to get pinned down underneath it If I'm not careful. Often, I've had to put my body up against it, holding the tube for support at the top whilst getting it out from being stuck on uneven ground, ledges etc. After 9 months of owning it, I'm now starting to get comfortable with how much I can tilt it before I go *splat* under it.

Putting wheels on a 10" was a completely new ball game compared to the 6". As the base and tube is much bigger, it demands bigger wheels with better movement. My setup for the 10" wheels are- 2 larger ones and 2 small castor wheels. The castor wheels help to aim the scopes direction. They are attached to a frame under the base. Not a solid frame as this would make the scope even heavier for me, but instead have used narrow long pieces of wood. Hope that makes sense. The larger wheels to get are the pneumatic type. Bunnings sell trolleys for around $20- the tyres on them are brilliant. They will be the ones going on my base replacing my current ones I have (which give no cushioning over bumps).

I tried the scope on the trolley in the shop before I bought the scope- just wasn't working for me. It made an already big and heavy scope into even more of a monster with the trolley. Everyone in the shop agreed - I was dwarfed by it all, and my frame just wasn't balancing it very well, *splat* was going to be inevitable. Perhaps the akwardness of the trolley was just me, who knows, but certainly worth checking into for someone with a small frame like me.

To give you a better idea of the size of a 10" scope against my frame, here is a pic (refer to post no# 30 and click on the image). Now remember, I said before my height is 5ft 5".(and a half!)
You will see in this image, the Saxon (and Skywatcher) have long handles (used for tension adjustment) attached to the top of the base. This is what I use to pull the scope around the yard with on the wheels. Brilliant! I yank it everywhere.
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...?t=901&page=30

I got used to lugging around a 6" before even contemplating the 10". And I can tell you, I was very nervous for quite some time handling the 10". If you were leaving your daughter outside alone with the scope, maybe you might have a better peace of mind with an 8" (?) you will be the best judge of what's do-able. If she doesn't have to move the scope around to get the best views and it just sits there on the same patch of grass the whole night - go for it.
Just make sure the base will fit on the back seat. It won't fit into the boot of a large car (I have one). Tube goes in the boot, diagonally.

Carefully consider the 10", and don't rule it out completely though.
If you were to start with an 8", when she gets older, then you would upgrade to a 12". Something to really look forward to. Jen here, has just bought herself a 12" collapsible. So it's handle-able - just! She went from a 6" too. She still hasn't gotten over the awe factor from the big jump- don't think she's slept in the last two months.
Dobs give the best apperture for price for visual observing. Either size, you definitely won't be sorry. The views that I got through my 6" were just incredible. Going from a 6" to a 10" was quite noticable. Just as it would be going from an 8" to a 12". Generally the two steps up is what I've come to understand the jump size is to take. Don't even think of upgrading to a 14"- you'll need a truck. 12" bottoms out at about the practical size
Even with a 6", you'll see nebulas, galaxies, globs, everything. A dark site will also give you better views than from suburbia- it's like throwing on an extra 2" of aperture.

And I'm going to yell out to all the guys here that rule only by aperture saying bigger is better and tell them to pull their heads in, because sometimes it comes down to sheer practicality. http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/....s/tongue05.gif

Don't confuse yourself with eyepieces yet. Not even until you've had the scope a few months at least. But keep that extra money for things you will need: eyepieces, filters, barlow, eye piece boxes, maps, books, software, etc etc etc. Premium widefield eps start at close to $300 (I think Panoptics start around $270). So that gives you an idea price wise what to expect if you go down the premium ep path.
Do bear in mind though, that the 10" dobs have a faster focal ratio and therefore, will have an impact on the edge performance of many eyepieces. I have a 15mm Orion Expanse and the whole eyepiece is useless now, and I spent $100 on it. All the stars are blurry.
Slower scopes are more forgiving- I didn't really have much of an issue with the 6"- my 15mm worked beautifully. You shouldn't really have a problem with the 8" either. Just once you go under f/5, seems to create some problems.

Hope this helps Natalie.
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  #32  
Old 21-04-2011, 10:51 AM
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My hands are sore.
If I don't post anymore today, you'll know why. I think I need a cuppa now.
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  #33  
Old 21-04-2011, 10:59 AM
overlord (Charles)
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I hate to go against the grain but I do not think that a Dob is a beginner's telescope. The thing is unwieldy... the images for popular objects like planets and saturn are less than perfect. U need to put it on wheels or it's basically really annoying and doesn't get taken out.

Maybe a smaller dob yeah... they make plenty of nice small ones...

Otherwise I recommend something like this!

http://www.tasco.com.au/Products/Cat...uctID/772.aspx

Sharper views of planets and a decent price!

(BUT since Dobs are now really cheap .... GO FOR IT!!! LOL!!!! What's to loose lol.) Edit: Yeah, like Suzy says Good stuff there! My 8" Dob is on wheels!
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  #34  
Old 21-04-2011, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NatalieR View Post
It's ok Suzy - I'm having another cuppa.

I just spoke to hubby and said "What if the 10" turns out to be too big" - he said he'd build us an observatory in the backyard for the big one and get a smaller scope for us to pull out and use on an ad hoc basis.

The sticking point in the thinking at the moment is the "you might be able to see galaxies with the 10" ... I've got to be honest and say that's pretty alluring. Even just the possibility of seeing one.

A few years back I went galaxy hunting from my suburban site. I saw nothing except the faintest possible whisp of M104, the Sombrero, So that's with my 8" in heavy light pollution so yeah, dark sky any Dob really will show u a galaxy.
Basically u need a dark sky and u WILL see them. even with a slightly smaller dob.
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  #35  
Old 21-04-2011, 11:13 AM
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Regarding galaxies, Brian is right, Natalie.

Don't expect too much. Though understand that as the eyes get better at studying little bits of detail, they will improve at seeing more. It's all about pushing visual observing to it's limits.
I've only seen 3 galaxies so far. Andromeda from a dark site in my 10" was huge and jaw dropping. Centaurus A (NGC 5128) showed a bright round glow, but I couldn't make out the dark lane inside. The guys in the obs. forum tell me the more I study it the more I will be able to pull out and see from it. The other one is The Sombrero Galaxy (M104). Only saw that thru my 6", but it was just a tiny cigar shaped fuzz. Yet to see in my 10".
A dark site tho is a must for galaxies.
Regardless of the little detail we see at the time, what is amazing is just that we can see them at all and how far they are away. The Sombrero all though tiny and fuzzy through my 6" is something like 33 million light years away! That in itself is awesome to see!

For more of an idea of what to expect to see, I recommend you take some time and lots more cuppas and have a read through the "Observation Reports" which is right at the top of the page in the "Observational and Visual Astronomy Forum". But I've given you the link to it straight here.
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/f...splay.php?f=25

Many of these guys posting reports here are experienced observers, so they have worked up to this stage.
My reports reflect my young experience of 18 months:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=71992

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=73786

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=67200
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Old 21-04-2011, 11:31 AM
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Oh, forgot to add, regarding observing reports.
Make sure you read some of Orestis' reports. Most of them were done when he was only 14 years old (he had only just recently turned 15). He did most of his observing from something under a 6" at the time (130mm I think), from a dark site. He has just in the last few months got himself a 12".
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  #37  
Old 21-04-2011, 01:53 PM
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Suzy - thank you for your epic post.

And thanks to everyone else for their input. Based on the comments here and some discussions with a knowledgeable friend, we've decided to go for the 8" and buy some decent EP's and filters just to get started. Later on down the track, once we've learnt a heap more than we do now, we'll no doubt buy some other bits and bobs but for the moment we're pretty happy that we've put together a solid kit.

The order has gone in and we should have it by the end of next week with any luck.

Thanks yet again - we would have made a costly mistake without the all of the input here.

Now off to read some observations.

Nat (and Em)
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  #38  
Old 21-04-2011, 02:46 PM
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Good for you! Now comes the bit of bad news. By buying all this new gear you have invoked the astronomers curse. You can now expect up to three months of overcast that will only partially clear during full moon. Or it may be nice and clear for the arrival of your scope.

Brian
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Old 21-04-2011, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian W View Post
Good for you! Now comes the bit of bad news. By buying all this new gear you have invoked the astronomers curse. You can now expect up to three months of overcast that will only partially clear during full moon. Or it may be nice and clear for the arrival of your scope.

Brian
GOOD ONE Brian!

NOW you tell her!

Great work Nat, did you go for the 8" GOTO version? This is cool because you will be able to connect the scope to a laptop and "drive" it from Stellarium etc....nice feature I use all the time on mine.

Have fun

Cheers

Chris
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Old 22-04-2011, 10:38 AM
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Brian - crystal clear skies last night...no scope We're very much ready for the Astronomers curse but figure it will give us a good chance to learn how to use the thing!

Chris - yep, the SynScan/GoTo version For those nights when Miss Em is tired and frustrated (or I am!) I wanted a plan B. It's still important for us that she learn the sky (and us too of course) but I didn't want it to be her only way of finding stuff.

Time to go and make space in the garage for the beast!

Nat
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