Why so few girls?

[Robh (Rob)]

One of the first things I noticed when I joined my local amateur astronomy group a few years ago was the preponderance of males. Not long ago, the local university had a Father and Son Night in astronomy. And, you guessed it, no Mother and Daughter Night. When I joined IIS not long ago, it struck me that there were few women in the forums. I may be wrong, but my bet is that males way out number the females in IIS as well. I can’t remember whether there was a Male/Female box you had to tick when filling out personal details so I don’t know wether Mike can give us any idea of the ratio.
Does anyone have a different feeling about the stats?
Are there any male/female couples out there that regularly do astronomical viewing together?
Assuming my feelings about the stats are right, my question in this International Year of Astronomy is “Why so few girls?” Why have we, as a society, not attracted more woman into this field of endeavour?
Are guys more “hard-wired” to astronomy or is it a case of “pink or blue, dolls or trucks” from an early age?
Female viewpoint welcome!
Curious, Rob

[PCH (Paul)]

Hi Robh,

I imagine it's for the same reason as why there are millions of ads on TV aimed solely at girls/ladies for underwear/clothes/make-up/diets/pills/magazines etc etc ....

Plus I'll bet a pound to a penny that all you guys wives or girlfriends will know exactly who Brad Pitt went out with before Angelina, and all the latest media gossip. While we generally neither know nor care. You know it's true

Guys and gals just have different interests - women usually like all the stuff mentioned above - and toys are usually for blokes.

It's been pointed out, slightly tongue in cheek I hope, that... "boys will be boys, but girls will be women"

In keeping with these definitions, my mum, wife and two daughters subscribe fully to all of the above accusations, - whilst I'm an unashamed toy collector.

And I think my habit is cheaper by the way - much

[Baddad (Marty)]

Hey PCH, You hit the nail right on the head.

Women are Venutians, men are Martians.

In social groups; women talk about people, feelings and dreams, men like to discuss toys.

As boys, if a boy can't play a certain game on even level, too bad. Rules are rules.
Girls will change the game rules to include a handicapped player.

I think it stems from the roles of what we evolved from. Males were protectors and providers. Not strictly, but generally speaking. Males developed ideas for tools and weapons.

Women, on the other hand needed to relate well with other women in the tribe or herd, group? they needed to provide support for each other.

And so the interests of Martians and Venutians developed from the survival roles of our ancestory.

Men like hunting and fishing. Women prefer ....? Hmm, what do women like?

Cheers Marty

[BerrieK]

Have a read of this... rather interesting ... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20466219/

but as suggested on the thread (men are from mars, women from venus) it might just come down to instinctive differences. Maybe. Personally I am interested in Mars and Venus and everything else in the universe and beyond (if there is a beyond that is).

Gendered interests are often also fostered by the same gender parent (ie. 'traditional' interests). Social and peer 'norms' and expectations can also influence a child or youths interest.

My dad was a science teacher and I have always enjoyed science, knowing how things work and why they work that way...perhaps my childhood influences have something to do with it.

Also adult resposibilities of females (eg. rearing kids, household stuff) can make scientific hobbies prohibitive in some cases or stages of life. This scenario is again rather traditionalist.

Cheers, Kerrie

[iceman (Mike)]

There's an increasing number of females in this hobby and on IceInSpace, but they are still far outweighed by the number of males.

I guess the reverse question could be asked on the sewing forums?

Yes stereotypical I know, but that's just how it pans out at the moment.

In my Uni course of 73 students (an IT course), only 3 were females. There's just not the same level of interest in some hobbies/technologies at the moment.

[Terry B]

This seems to be the case but interestingly at our local astro group it is about 50/50.

[Analog6 (Odille)]

Originally Posted by BerrieK

Also adult resposibilities of females (eg. rearing kids, household stuff) can make scientific hobbies prohibitive in some cases or stages of life. This scenario is again rather traditionalist.

Cheers, Kerrie

I do think this is responsible for a lot of it. I have no children so have always been free to follow my photography/astronomy interests (within financial constraints). And until the last couple of decades, women often earnt far less than their male counterparts and this can have an influence too.

Schools tend to lump children into gender grouped activites too - girls are not encouraged, even now, to do woodwork/hands on/scientific type stuff - sewing and cookery are often still considered more 'appropriate'. I can't sew to save myself!

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Analog6

]..... women often earnt far less than their male counterparts and this can have an influence too.

Sorry, this is a myth.

I have worked with many very capable women who have exceeded my salary due their hard work and effort. *All* awards I have worked under do not discriminate on the basis of gender. In Oz, same job/level/rank= same pay. It's the law.

In terms of demographics, women and men simply have different interests. Life would be pretty boring if we didn't.

[Gallifreyboy]

I agree with the different interests theory. I bought a new telescope in January and have spent a lot of time with the kids (me being the biggest one) trying to encourage enthusiasm in equal amounts. Oldest child female 11 slight interest in smiley face conjunction in December and first good view of Saturn. Second child age 7 male cannot stop talking or thinking astronomy, wants to know everything, can locate accurately 30 brightest stars in sky, knows names 4 galillean moons looks up astronomy websites for favourite photos. Third child female age 4 interested in moon and saturn but busually in bed by time of best viewing. Similar genetics, similar encouragement, different outcomes.

[Bolts_Tweed (Mark)]

As an Engineering lecturer I have seen the number of females entering the Engineering u/g program increase steadily from less than 1% to over 8% presently - still too low but it is refelected in the traditional sciences at our uni. Interestingly the uni medal for best u/g engineering result has gone to a female for 6 of the last 7 years.

If I am forced to generalise I have found that the majority of the male students will study to remember that 2 +2 = 4 to pass exams while the majority of the feamles will want to know why it equals 4 and I have even had them argue that it shouldnt equal 4 or they want to know how I feel about it equaling 4.

My point is that while may have different operational centres in our brains (arguable) the female brain is definately suited to more pure scientific pursuits making the number imbalance due to other causes than the 'way' we think.

The good news is that the 10th observatory we have had built on our site at Leyburn was erected by a female with her husband last weekend. My long suffering wife is still smiling.

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

Yeah, there's not many of us around.
Why?
You'd have to ask those women who aren't interested in Astronomy that question.
Me, I love it, I breathe it, I'm a total Astro bore and proud of it.
I can't understand why everybody else doesn't love it too.

[toryglen-boy (Duncan)]

i asked one girly friend why she thought it was boring, and not at all fun or interesting. her reply?

she thought that telescopes looked very "phallic" and gadgety, male orientated, and not at all feminine.

i got the impression if she could find a telescope in nice pastel shades with those absolutely awful frangiapani car window stickers, it might be more approachable.

That said, my better half has a very keen interest in it, and loves gazing through the eyepiece.

[Jen]

Well there is not many women in here cause all you astro geeks are really scary
U are all pretty cool
Nah just kidding well for one im not a girley girl anyway the only mags i buy are astro ones make up very little dont wear it much at all flowers come and go but the stars are always there
I have much more fun with the boys through school i always picked electrical and woodwork while the girls were sewing and cooking yuck When i did my IT classes i was the only chick too
I have tried to get all my friends into it but they just have a quick look and thats it they think im a weirdo But im a proud one

And most of the women i know love their beauty sleep so that makes them miss out on all the good stuff to look at in the sky at night time

But on a girley note i do love the color PURPLE and i loveeeeee emoticons so there is a hint of girley hormones there somewhere

[ngcles]

Hi Rob, Peter & All,

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Sorry, this is a myth.

In terms of demographics, women and men simply have different interests. Life would be pretty boring if we didn't.

Sorry Peter but I have to disagree with you on this being a myth.

The statement by Analogue6 was very true in practice -- as opposed to law or policy. Analogue6 put it as a matter of history and I don't think anyone could reasonably argue otherwise.

In terms of average salary/pay women have now almost caught up to men but it has taken a long, long time for that to happen. Wind the clock back 50 or even 20-odd years, the amount of disposable income women had ready access to for discretionary spending was generally smaller than men. Back then, telescopes either cost a lot of discretionary money to buy or discretionary time to make -- and historically, most younger women had little of either commodity.

This factor has had a significant effect on female participation in our hobby -- and really we're only just been seeing that change significantly in the last 10-20 years. I hope the trend continues. A lot of other factors are at play that have conspired to keep the numbers of women down. This is the way I see it:

One of the most important factors is that, as a general statement women's and men's brains are wired differently at a fundamental level. That's not to say one or the other is more intelligent, better or superior. Whether that difference is genetic or learned or a mixture of both is moot, but I believe it is a fact -- and thank goodness for that difference. Again to emphasise -- that's not to say one is better than the other. But we have to acknowledge that real difference whatever its origin. As an example, few men are good at multi-tasking. Generally women leave men for dead in that department -- their brains are fundamentally different in that department to most men.

I believe the subject material of astronomy is simply more likely to find wider appeal in male brains than female. This is not a universal statement but a general statement -- please read it as such.

Rightly or wrongly, men are generally really into "toys". Women generally find relationships more important and fulfilling to them than toys. Talking is much more important to women than it is to men. Doing is generally more important to men than talking. Astronomy is a hobby that revolves around doing things with and playing with toys. Generally, men enjoy this more than women.

Up until maybe the current generation, women have had much less discretionary time to pursue a hobby or pass-time -- and if they did, it was more likely to be a home-based pass-time so they were at hand to do the things society typecast them as being responsible for. This is (rightly) changing but slowly.

The societies must bear some of the blame. Historically, the amateur astronomy societies have been dominated by men -- politically and socially. Again, rightly or wrongly, many men have used the societies as a "boys club" where they can go to hang out with other men. This is a perfectly normal behaviour for a man -- we need space away from the girls from time to time in the same way women enjoy time away from men with other women.

But, it has been to the detriment of female amateur astronomers, some of whom (understandably) feel intimidated by either the sheer numbers of men there or driven away (consciously or unconsciously) by men who fail to make them feel welcome, comfortable and equal. That's not to say it happens all the time, but I'm sure it happens at least sometimes.

All of this has lead to a dearth of female role-models in amateur astronomy. That lack of role-models has assisted to perpetuate the ladies under-representation in the hobby and the societies.


for the girls!


Best,

Les D

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

I'm with you Jen.
I've always been a Tom Boy. I used to spend my summers as a child building tree houses.
Never been into make up, fashion etc etc
Womens magazines make me gag and only ever buy the astro mags, american scientific, cosmos, grassroots etc.

There is discrimination within the Astronomy community, which is humiliating and hurtful. It's not nice to be ignored and patronised.
But I've managed to surround myself with the most supportive people, most of which I've met here on IIS.

[marki]

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

There is discrimination within the Astronomy community, which is humiliating and hurtful. It's not nice to be ignored and patronised.

Thats a real shame jjj, I wonder how many others have been put off by such an experience? It certainly might be an answer to your question Rob.

Mark

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

Discrimination is prevelant everywhere. If you allow it to stop you enjoying your hobby, you're as much a fool as they are.

[erick (Eric)]

Interesting discussion. I am aware of cases of a couple with scope and some people jumping to the conclusion that it is his scope and his hobby when he's just tagging along with the real amateur astronomer.

[Baddad (Marty)]

Hey all,
There's a lot of good arguements contained in these posts. I can agree with many of them. Some I need to think about a little more, but probably valid.

I'm introducing some more material into the thread. Simply to illustrate the differences in men's and women's interests that I have experienced.

I was a body builder years ago and in that sport there was a large proportion of women.

I also was a ballroom dance instructor. There were always women without male partners in that past time. However Rock 'n Roll was a little better matched but still lacked in male numbers.

I have been a guest with several fishing club outings. Almost devoid of women.

Read into these points what you will. I often have found that women don't want to read operator's manuals for TVs and the like. Then when it comes crunch time. "Can't they make these things easier to use? Its stupid! Dumb TV."

ngcles mentions the differences in the brains. This I have to agree with. Women are better at communication skills while men have more logical orientated brains.

A woman can express herself better, and a man can read a road map better; generally speaking, to illustrate that point.

I was in charge of a number of Electronic Tradespeople and apprentices. I sometimes had need to call on an apprentice, male or female, to teach me about an equipment. I was the boss and teacher. No shame in it.

From this I don't discriminate who teaches me what. If the 'teacher' knows more than me; I am an eager student. I find it sad that jjj or Jen or who ever believes they are underdone with discrimination.

Keep a stiff upper lip girls I trust the boys of IIS are fully supportive.

Cheers Marty

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by Baddad

ngcles mentions the differences in the brains. This I have to agree with. Women are better at communication skills while men have more logical orientated brains.

We're problem solvers. Plain and simple. They like to talk about it.
Oohhh! I'm gonna get in trouble for this one.