Cummon you mighty Leeds - Page 2

JethroB76 (Jeff) · #21 02-05-2008, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by capella

Dennis Wise ex Chelsea !!! LOL

You wanna see a thug, look no further than Chelseas' little Dennis; didn't matter if you were playing for or against, you were still a potential target of the venomous midget.

Pretty sure most clubs have players similar to this in their history, plastic Chelsea while buying some success with stolen oil money and seemingly nice and wholesome at the moment are no different.
Then there is Chelseas' own hooligans the "Headhunters" who have found themselves subjects of movies, so yes, its part of many clubs, whether you like it or not.

cahullian · #22 04-05-2008, 07:41 PM

A little off topic there guys. Yes Leeds were a hard bunch of blokes in those days but ask any of our players and they will tell you that most teams they faced tried to kick them off the pitch.

Gazz

JethroB76 (Jeff) · #23 04-05-2008, 08:57 PM

A little

Anyway, a fading Carlisle in the playoffs, better than Donny IMO

cahullian · #24 05-05-2008, 12:42 PM

I'm glad Forrest made it up. I can't see us having too much trouble in the play off's now.

Gazz

ngcles · #25 13-05-2008, 07:24 AM

Hi All,

1st leg of the Leeds v Carlisle semi-final playoffs --

Leeds 1 Carlisle 2 !!!!!

Wooo hooooo! Come on you blues !!

Second leg on the 15th at Brunton Pk

Best,

Les D

Solanum · #26 13-05-2008, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JethroB76

Typical

Seems there was nothing in the ruling regarding Leeds actually breaking rules;
just that
a) we'd signed to say we'd accept the original penalty (that or we couldn't play in the league!);
b) we took too long to appeal (no that was the football league that delayed it)
and c) at this late stage it'd be unfair on other teams (the ones that voted and benefited from the decision in the first place).

Sorry to jump on this late, but if you actually read the ruling http://www.football-league.premiumtv.co.uk/staticFiles/4c/ec/0,,10794~126028,00.pdf it repeatedly says that Leeds tried to twist the rules in every way that they could and that Bates and his solicitors lied on multiple occasions.

The 15 points wasn't anything to do with exiting administration. The 15 point deduction was for the transfer of league membership to a new club (don't forget the old Leeds was effectively wound up and a new company generated - no leeds shares were bought or transferred and the creditors weren't paid off). In other cases, a club has been required to restart in the league two divisions below their current place (yes this has happened, to Boston United). The 15 point deduction was a CONCESSION to allow the new Leeds to start in League One instead of League Two as the rules demanded. It was a concession that Bates agreed to and he also agreed not to take legal action over it (which he then did).

Not all league chairmen voted for the points deduction, some (including my club, Stockport County) voted against, because it was too lenient and stated that they should be placed in league two as the rules demanded.

It amazes me the amount of misinformation that is put around about this. Bates has a long and inglorious history and the way he defrauded the Leeds creditors in this matter is appalling.

Dujon · #27 13-05-2008, 09:31 AM

I haven't bothered keeping up with the trials (in both senses) of Leeds U. They've been in deep doggy poo for what seems ages. I do though feel sorry for the fans of the club who have had to put up with the repercussions of management decisions. Bad luck, Gazz, I feel for you, mate, I really do.

Your ever-lovin' Trotter friend (checks skin, teeth and other scrabbly stuff).

Solanum · #28 13-05-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dujon

I haven't bothered keeping up with the trials (in both senses) of Leeds U. They've been in deep doggy poo for what seems ages. I do though feel sorry for the fans of the club who have had to put up with the repercussions of management decisions. Bad luck, Gazz, I feel for you, mate, I really do.

Your ever-lovin' Trotter friend (checks skin, teeth and other scrabbly stuff).

Yeah, well I guess even Leeds fans don't deserve Ridsdale AND Bates!

Still, I think fans are part of the problem (not Leeds in particular). They tend to have such high expectations that they welcome any shyster with open arms who promises them money, forgetting that these are all businessmen who didn't get rich by giving stuff away and will one day take all that money back, with interest.

When the Russian gangster gets bored at Chelsea, I suspect that will be the end of the club. He's spent so much there that I doubt they'll survive when he goes (and he will - he's not Jack Walker). Similarly, City welcoming Shinawatra with open arms, despite his history and current legal problems....

The Unbeliever · #29 13-05-2008, 10:38 PM

Hi,

I have been here since 1973 and have met stacks of Chelsea (my Dad was one of them) supporters over the years. The same goes for Manutd fans (thats me since 1968) I haven't missed an FA cup since 1976 regardless of who is playing you can never get enough Football.

Cheers

Dave

Quote:

Originally Posted by cahullian

It's great to hear a few people in this country don't go for the top 4 clubs.
When I first came to Australia in 1986 I never met a Chelsea supporter, now they are comming out of the woodwork. Ha ha

P.S. Good luck to your teams also fellas.

Gazz

The Unbeliever · #30 13-05-2008, 10:42 PM

Hi

Dennis Wise is a pussy cat compared to Leeds Billy Bremner he was dynamite at taking out an opposing player with what is termed a 'professional foul'. If anything he taught whole generation on how to play dirty and get away with it.

Cheers

Dave
PS He was about the same stature as Dennis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JethroB76

You wanna see a thug, look no further than Chelseas' little Dennis; didn't matter if you were playing for or against, you were still a potential target of the venomous midget.

Pretty sure most clubs have players similar to this in their history, plastic Chelsea while buying some success with stolen oil money and seemingly nice and wholesome at the moment are no different.
Then there is Chelseas' own hooligans the "Headhunters" who have found themselves subjects of movies, so yes, its part of many clubs, whether you like it or not.

JethroB76 (Jeff) · #31 14-05-2008, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solanum

Still, I think fans are part of the problem (not Leeds in particular). They tend to have such high expectations that they welcome any shyster with open arms who promises them money,

I don't remember any Leeds fans welcoming Bates arrival at the club....but believe it or not he was a better option than Simon Morris (property developer) who was sniffing around at the time.

Bates is definitely dodgy but the fact is a CVA was organised by the administrators KPMG, which fell apart because the HMRC contested it. Had this gone through, the club would have started the new League 1 season with points intact.

After the failure of the CVA, with the club on the brink of being wound up, Bates regained control after KPMG put the 'old club' up for sale with the highest bid of 52.9p in the pound. So the creditors were paid, not in full, but double that of the next best bid.

The league imposed a 15 point penalty as a deterrent to clubs simply becoming new companies to write off debt to protect creditors - the HMRC intervened though and prevented the club from exiting admin via CVA, but creditors ended up getting more money than they would have anyway...Leeds had to take any penalty on the chin at the time because other wise the club was out of the league and gone for good, that we could start in L1 but with the "concession" of -15 is a joke because it generally condemns clubs to relegation anyway.

I have a feeling that if a White Knight rode into town and outbid Bates with 60p or whatever then we would have started with no points deduction

They have set a precedent now so it'll be interesting how they will deal with the many near bankrupt clubs over there, the HMRC will contest CVAs because they won't be offered all their money, there will be more Leeds-type situations...will the league be handing 15pt penalties out to all these clubs? Leeds may be in the playoffs but any other club to receive a similar points penalty has not avoided relegation..talk about doomed.

Solanum · #32 14-05-2008, 08:40 AM

Let's not lose sight of the fact that Bates was already in charge of Leeds and had taken over the club knowing exactly what the situation was. Then when Leeds were relegated he put them into administration in order to get the points deduction in that season rather risk them in a later season. Then he offered to buy back the club from himself, but offered the 35 million quids worth of creditors 1p in the pound (which he later increased to 8p). The whole thing was a scam in order to rid himself of the debts he had knowingly taken on in taking over the club.

If I remember rightly, the several million owed to his own dodgy offshore fund (at least we can only guess it's his own, because to the best of my knowledge it has never been made clear exactly who else is involved with it) was going to be transferred, so in effect he was retaining the possibility of getting back all of his money whilst offering a pittance to not just the inland revenue, but the cleaners, St. Johns Ambulance and all the rest of the every day creditors). The inland revenue rightly objected, this was the tax payers money after all which they are duty bound to try and collect, and that particular deal fell though.

As for the Simon Morris bid, I don't know anything about him, but I don't think the bid was ever made public and he wasn't given access to the accounts, so couldn't bid on a level playing field (if you'll excuse the pun).

So firstly, the whole situation was designed to allow the club to rid itself of it's debts without Bates losing any of his own money and secondly the rules (as used against Boston) meant that Leeds should have started in League 2. The 15 point deduction was never likely to relegate a club with the support Leeds has in League One.

I fail to see what Leeds have to complain about, they succeeded in getting rid of most of their debt through devious, barely legal, means and they avoided dropping the two divisions they should have. They haven't been hard done by and don't have any reasonable grounds for complaint.

Now all that said I am no fan of the points deduction for going into administration, but it was brought in after Leicester (?), bankrupted themselves in order to stay in the premier league then went into administration after they succeeded, thereby relegating another club who were more financially prudent.

Furthermore, the problem was created by Ridsdale and there lies the nub, these chairmen can loan any money they like to a club and they get to decide, then when they've had enough they leave and take it away leaving the club bankrupt and no one was ever in a position to prevent it.

The same thing, on a smaller scale, happened to my own club (Stockport County) when Brenden Ellwood removed his cash, leading to the sale of our ground. However, the club is now owned by a supporters trust and one of a very small number of the 92 league clubs that is solvent, not only that but we are currently trying to buy back the ground. Anyone that wants to help, and get cheap advertising, should have a look here:
http://www.groundforapound.com

And if you think a club can't get any success without large cash injections note, that we just escaped relegation out of the league prior to the trust takeover but are currently in the playoffs for promotion to League one.

JethroB76 (Jeff) · #33 14-05-2008, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solanum

Furthermore, the problem was created by Ridsdale and there lies the nub, these chairmen can loan any money they like to a club and they get to decide, then when they've had enough they leave and take it away leaving the club bankrupt and no one was ever in a position to prevent it.

aint that the truth! Only Ridsdale didn't put much if any of his own cash in, just borrowed against future money from European competitions etc. which we failed to qualify for.

As for the points and relegation; the League document states that what we avoided was a drop in one league not two; that 15 pts wasn't considered likely to relegate us doesn't necessarily make it right - you can't apply a penalty like that on a club by club basis.

Also, Simon Morris was at the club along with the original asset strippers led by Gerald Krasner. It is thought he is owner of Leeds' training ground at Thorp Arch; prime real estate which "had" to be sold at a pittance to help raise funds a few years BB (before Bates).
He suggested he was going to buy back Elland Road if he bought the club, for purely altruistic reasons no doubt; I'm pretty sure one of the lower unsuccessful bids was his.

Dujon · #34 14-05-2008, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solanum

. . . Still, I think fans are part of the problem (not Leeds in particular). They tend to have such high expectations . . .

Only in as much as they are deflated if their expectations are not met. There are few football clubs where fans have a direct input into management of that club, as you well know. In many cases I would suggest that such is a good thing.

Blimey, if you read the comments on a fairly conservative Bolton web site that I frequent some of the supporters would have the club spend such huge amounts of money to attract players you'd think they were playing Monopoly (TM). Unbelievable and totally irresponsible - certainly not the people I'd like involved in the fiscal affairs of my club.

We (Bolton) are still in debt. From my minimal amount of reading so are most other football clubs. We struggle to fill the ground for home games and overpay weekly wages to non-performers - although that will probably happen whatever level the wages are set.

Whatever, just like your little castle's finances, you should never spend money before it's confirmed as in the bank. If you don't you might as well visit the bookies, credit card in hand, at Aintree.

Solanum · #35 14-05-2008, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JethroB76

As for the points and relegation; the League document states that what we avoided was a drop in one league not two; that 15 pts wasn't considered likely to relegate us doesn't necessarily make it right - you can't apply a penalty like that on a club by club basis.

I agree, but that does of course mean that Leeds should have started in League Two.... which brings me back round to my original point that Leeds don't really have anything to complain about. Whether the current rules are the best way of dealing with the debt that most clubs have is another thing entirely though.... When it comes to the FA (and to a lesser extant the Football League) a phrase involving piss up and brewery comes to mind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dujon

We (Bolton) are still in debt. From my minimal amount of reading so are most other football clubs. We struggle to fill the ground for home games and overpay weekly wages to non-performers - although that will probably happen whatever level the wages are set.

The last figures I saw, probably from a couple of seasons ago and plucked from my ailing memory, were that eight of the 92 league clubs were in the black. Being trust run has had it's ups and downs for County, but no one can now buy the club and destroy it and we are running a fiscally responsible ship. Maybe we are a special case (we County fans would obviously think so!), but the 6 or 7 other clubs currently or previously run by a supporters trust have mostly done fairly well also.

cahullian · #36 14-05-2008, 02:06 PM

I understand the arguments (philosophically speaking) on both sides of this debate but as a one-eyed Leeds fan even a 1 point deduction at any stage is wrong. The two other clubs in league one who also lost points ( Luton and Bournemouth) both got relegated and may also lose 15 points next year. If that isn't a two division drop I don't know what is.

No one has had much to say about the millions O’Leary spent on building the team. I think that's where all the trouble started. We brought in Robbie Fowler and when we sold him to Man City and agreed to pay half his wages for years. We could have sold Kewell for 50 mill but in the end sold him for 5 mill and his agent got half of that. O’Leary and Ridsdale were as bad as each other I'm sad we are out of the premier league but I am so very very happy we still exist as a club and hope we can claw our way back without getting into 160 mil debt.

I have been a Leeds fan all my life. I can never remember not being a fan. Two years ago my brother and I laid flowers at the foot of Billy Bremner’s statue (there were over a dozen bunches of flowers there). Cheered the boys on and spent a motza in the club shop. It was one of those days that will stick in my mind for as long as I live. That is what football and being a fan is all about and points being deducted and court decisions and independent tribunals can never take that away.

Long live football but more importantly LONG LIVE LEEDS UNITED!!!
EVERY DAY WE'RE ALL GOING TO SAY WE LOVE YOU LEEDS, LEEDS, LEEDS

Gazz

JethroB76 (Jeff) · #37 14-05-2008, 11:49 PM

Well, Luton now have -15 as well.

At least they're being consistent, but it still aint fair IMO...I hope Lord Mawhinney or whatever his name is at the League is ready for the backlash from all the clubs copping the penalty

First you get -10 for going into admin then another -15 for not exiting with a CVA...so Luton will start in L2 with -15 after releasing most of their 1st team players because they're broke, they're screwed

ngcles · #38 16-05-2008, 07:32 AM

Hi All,

Oh No!

Leeds 3 Carlisle 2 (on agg).

Back to the drawing board for next year I guess. Congrats to the Leeds team and their fans.

I now hope Leeds get promoted this year so the elephant won't be in the room next year.

Best,

Les D

Solanum · #39 16-05-2008, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngcles

Hi All,

Oh No!

Leeds 3 Carlisle 2 (on agg).

Back to the drawing board for next year I guess. Congrats to the Leeds team and their fans.

I now hope Leeds get promoted this year so the elephant won't be in the room next year.

Best,

Les D

You should never rely on the play-offs! In the 90's County got to the play-off final at Wembley two years running. Did we get promoted? Did we heck. Though we did get automatic promotion the following year.

cahullian · #40 16-05-2008, 09:53 AM

A good result for the boys. Now we have to win the big one.

COME ON YOU LEEDS

Gazz