The future of general consumer DSLR's for astrophotography

[cometcatcher (Kevin)]

I was going to ask a question in another thread, but it's way off topic so thought I'd start a new one.

The differences between a DSLR and dedicated OSC CCD are fairly straight forward - (unmodded) DSLR's run hot, have a Ha killing filter and can't bin, or at least mine can't. Do you guys think more modern consumer grade DSLR's are getting better for astrophotography or are they floundering in megapixels?

Are more pixels for let's say APS-C format better or does the image just get way oversampled?

Will DSLR's ever bin pixels for better low light shooting? I had a VHS-C video camera years ago and it looked like it was binning and using slow shutter just to get the shot in low light, but I don't recall seeing this feature on DSLR's yet.

Will the majority of cameras be mirrorless soon or is that just a fad?

One reason I ask is that the older DSLR's, especially when modded seem to be still holding their own against much newer cameras, although admittedly the older cameras can be a pain to use for lack of features if one is already used to using something newer.

[lazjen (Chris)]

I think DSLRs are probably not going to become more suited for astro - not because there's a lack of technology to do it, but more they're made for a completely different market.

And as you point out, you basically have to change a number of features of the DSLR to get the best out of it for astro. Each of those changes takes it further away from its intended usage/market.

[raymo]

I think that DSLRs already are becoming better for AP, [intentionally or otherwise]. Firstly, we now have "Live View" on most later models. ISO max was traditionally 1600
on most earlier models, but now the sky's the limit. We now have noise
reduction modes which apart from being quite effective, sometimes can
eliminate the need for separate darks. We now have swivelling LCD
screens on many models, which is a boon. Most models have HD video
capability, which works quite well for lunar and planetary. Binning is
not a significant omission, as this is offered in many image processing
packages, and in any case the same result is achieved by reducing
the linear size of an image. DSLRs are frequently decried by AP
purists, but there are a few clever, talented, and very committed
individuals out there producing stunning work with DSLRs that is
virtually indistinguishable from mono CCD LRGB work.
raymo

[skysurfer]

After my recent upgrade from the Canon 7d to 6d it is a major improvement. Two stops finer grain (i.e. 6400 has the same grain as 1600 on the 7d) and better dynamic range in general. Red nebulas can now be rendered with CLS filters setting to custom WB which boosts red by about 2 stops and due to the fine grain / low noise that should be ok without a modded camera.
And may I add to Raymo's post that remote controlling apps such as DSLR Dashboard or DSLR controller make it even easier than a tilting screen.
For me DSLR is easier and more convenient than CCD imaging, particularly with Fullframe. Despite the high price of fullframe, it is yet a lot cheaper than all these extra devices required + the Atik itself.

But I think that full frame mirrorless cameras will appear in the future. Full frame should not necessarily be larger and bulkier.

[gregbradley]

There is a full frame mirrorless now. That is the Sony A7 (24mp) and the Sony A7r (36.4mp). I have the Sony A7r. I had a Nikon D800e for a year and a half. The sensor is the same with the difference of the Sony has no AA filter (the blurring filter that reduces moire) and the Nikon had a double one to self cancel the blurring effect.

Both respond very similarly with the Sony having a touch more noise but I think its ISO6400 is brighter than the ISO6400 of the Nikon so it comes down to size. The Sony is very small and the Nikon about average for a DSLR.

DSLRs main gains over the last 8 years is in noise. They are a lot less noisy than they were just a few years ago. The bar has been set very high.

I think the popularity of nightscapes has come about by the good high ISO low noise performance started by the Canon 5D2 and now shared by practically any modern camera of the last 2 years.

Sensor developments are quite strong in the digital camera arena but seem stagnant in the CCD area. Kodak sold its sensor making business to True Sense Imaging about 2 years ago and they have put out very little and nothing groundbreaking since.

Sony has made some advance in CCD with the ICX694 chip being a very good sensor.

But DSLRs/mirrorless are advancing big time. Backside illuminated chips as in Sony RX10011 and in many smartphones now (a 13mp Sony chip) offer a 40% gain in sensitivity.

Fuji is working on an organic sensor with much greater dynamic range than any other sensor and possibly could have something to market next year.

Sony is rumoured to have a 54mp full frame DSLR sensor. It is likely to appear in the next year or so.

Canon going for split pixels to aid in phase detect autofocus is probably going the wrong way for astro as small pixels usually mean worse noise. 70D owners could advise there. It remains to be seen if Canon uses that approach on other camera models or if its a one off.

Panasonic developed an interesting colour matrix which uses prisms to split the light into colours rather than dye coloured filters.

There is development going on with the Foveon style sensor where photons are read at different depths of the sensor for RGB. The colours go different depths. One of the manufacturers has a patent for a sensor like this which is different to the Sigma Foveon which has superb colour and resolution but poor high ISO low noise performance.

The Fuji organic sensor seems the most interesting. Also I read about an organic sensor that is flexible.

Greg.

[cometcatcher (Kevin)]

Sounds like DSLR's may yet have a future in astro work. Because mass production keeps the price down, one does get a nicely featured camera for the $ also.

I should mention that due to ghost hunting shows on a lot of American TV networks, Full Spectrum modified cameras are becoming the rage with paranormal researchers and ghost hunting groups. In fact going by the adds, there are probably more people after a Full Spectrum camera for ghost hunting than those wanting one for astronomy! My FS Nikon D70s was advertised as a camera for ghost hunting and UFO research!

[RickS (Rick)]

Originally Posted by cometcatcher

My FS Nikon D70s was advertised as a camera for ghost hunting and UFO research!

Must take a bloody long exposure to image a ghost

[gregbradley]

Originally Posted by RickS

Must take a bloody long exposure to image a ghost

You need a good tracking mount!

Greg.

[cometcatcher (Kevin)]

Originally Posted by gregbradley

You need a good tracking mount!

Greg.

Lol I wonder what rate to use?

[Ken]

Ghost busters aside, If there are any ccd manufactures out there a large percentage of astroimagers need a mono aps size chip with large pixels low noise and a qe of 60 to 70% between rgb and antiblooming. Cant be that hard to leave the colour matrix of one of there older dslr chips, ill have 2 please.
Clear skies Ken

[cometcatcher (Kevin)]

Then that would be an astro CCD.

For bog standard, sounds like the Canon 6D is a favourite at the moment, along with the latest Sony mirrorless cameras.

My problem is my budget is pretty low so I usually have to wait a couple of years to pick up something second hand. By then something better is out.

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

I'm still loving my modded and cooled Canon 1100D.
Only occasionally do I get the urge to try my hand at a dedicated CCD. Maybe I will down the track.
But I like to keep things simple because it makes the whole experience more enjoyable.

[cometcatcher (Kevin)]

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

But I like to keep things simple because it makes the whole experience more enjoyable.

Same here. Plus there's not a lot of sky time in Mackay, especially during summer. Usually have to get the shot quick and get it over with before 9 months of cloud come along.