The increasing sophistication of scopes and mounts under PC control really facilitates the ability to be inside with your family while still busily photographing that elusive new supernova!
After posting my comments above on the PWM dew heater controller, I got to musing over the lack of a low cost USB-based remotely-controllable general purpose "box" that one could build or buy to manage all the little jobs needed to take care of an observatory, especially to remotely monitor and control them from your warm house on a cold winter's night.
Focusing, various temp and dew monitoring functions, voltages, Camera cooling, filter switching, lighting, security, etc.
IIS members also need easy access to the simple brackets, motors and metalwork bits to bolt to your scopes to make things actually happen, such as electric focus, dew heating, etc.
The really fancy jobs are already taken care of; Camera control, mount control, Goto, etc, yet the simple tasks mainly still require you to stumble out to the obs, unless you want to spend gobs of money.
My concept is for a simple "open-source" approach to designing a "modular" USB-controlled box with various off-the-shelf functional kits inside. You only bought the 'kits' to do what you wanted, but could add more kits and functions later if you wished, with the fundamental objectives of low cost and simplicity; either build it yourself from a kit of instructions, or buy one ready-made from a member who may like the pocket money to build and test it for you.
Project members' skills that would be needed include sourcing the basic electronic kits from established suppliers, simple CAD metal bracket design and fab, simple programming, testing, documentation and some basic organisational aspects for the joint effort. I don't see this as a manufacturing project, more a means of putting together info and available items that will do the basic functions.
I may be way over ambitious in my estimation of IIS members' needs and abilities, but I thought a post to see response may be worthwhile.
My thanks to both Steve and Brett for the helpful inputs.
Yes, these are the types of "off the shelf USB controller kits" that I was referring to as being the heart of the 'box'. Customising their functions and developing an obs-related PC user interface, plus the hardware trivia such as boxes and brackets needed to make them useful as an observatory-specific product, is the objective. Tandum's and other's posts on the Dew heater project were also indicative of the interests others have in this direction.
What my post was more trying to do was to see if there were enough members interested in cooperating in doing this basic groundwork to make these units into a simple but useful astronomy resource that other members could read about and purchase via the project, without having to endure all the effort and frustration involved in development of the observatory-specific functions.
In other words, the writing and testing of those little bits of software, designing and making those little scope attachment brackets, locating suitable low power 12V motors, etc, would all be done by the group one time, instead of the haphazard 'wheel re-invention" that is the present status quo in our pastime.
Something that any IIS member could purchase through the group with the knowledge of what useful functions it did, and that with on-line IIS member assistance, he or she didn't need to be a rocket scientist to put it together and use. There have been similar helpful simple one-man projects done here before, such as the EQ extender bar, which stimulated my interest. Steve Mogg's website is another for-profit example of specialised items. Good on him for having the machining skills to do it.
Obviously the 'box' I am talking about is a little more than one man would be expected to develop, especially on a non-profit basis,hence the idea of a joint "open-source" project.
With volunteer skills jointly doing the various development tasks, the simple locally-available hardware components become the major cost item, and one would expect a simple multi-purpose 'remote observatory control box' could be available to IIS members for a few hundreds of dollars, not thousands, with the objective of leaving the user with more time to better enjoy and develop their astronomy skills. If you notice I keep using the word 'simple' that's because this project really is, if a few people with the right skills cooperated in developing it.!
I should make it clear, though, that "remote" means in your back yard, not 1500Km away! At least in the basic system as envisaged.
Anyway, I won't ramble on further if there is insufficient interest, just thought I'd plant the seed of of an idea for something simple that is presently totally unavailable to most members, me included.
Last edited by mldee; 30-08-2009 at 01:36 PM.
Reason: grammar
I would just LOVE this idea to work.
I love the ATM spirit of sharing an idea and broadcasting it for
all to see.
Mel Bartels is one true example of the spirit of this concept.
His idea has been spread far and wide and copied often.
He expects no royalties. he still runs forums and gives advice.
Other people, quite openly, make money selling very close
copies of his concept. It's hard to prove who dreamed it up first.
He runs a small mail order business too. Good on him, he deserves it.
I wish the world had more people like Mel.
I could contribute with the electronics side.
I'm competent in the mechanical side enough to make remote
door openers or dome rotators...rain detector...dome lights on/off
You name the function...
I can program in VB and C
I fall down in really good programming. Others could step in here.
As far as open source ideas:
ASCOM is a great example. Anyone can contribute a driver
or layer to the system to add functionality. Even USB now.
If I were you I would go and research the ASCOM database and
platform before going any further.
The ASCOM initiative is purely the same spirit of project.
Someone dreams up a function they want added.
Someone designs the 'smart box'
Someone adds the driver to the platform to 'welcome that device
on board'
I would just LOVE this idea to work.
I love the ATM spirit of sharing an idea and broadcasting it for
all to see.
Mel Bartels is one true example of the spirit of this concept.
.....edited for brevity....
Other people, quite openly, make money selling very close
copies of his concept. .....
I could contribute ...
I can program in VB and C .........
As far as open source ideas:
ASCOM is a great example. .....
If I were you I would go and research the ASCOM database and
platform before going any further......
Someone dreams up a function they want added.
Someone designs the 'smart box'
Someone adds the driver to the platform to 'welcome that device
on board'
Away you go....
Steve
Thanks Steve for the very informative reply.
If this ever does gel into a DIY group project for IIS members, we'll count you as member #1
I'll take your advice and research the ASCOM approach, I use EQMOD and love it, although with our much smaller numbers here in Oz, I presume we would be aiming a lot lower in our expectations, but then again, the objective is a lot simpler as well.
Who knows, perhaps other astronomy groups may also wish to participate, it doesn't have to be IIS-centric, although that's where it starts.
BTW, my background is also in electronics, but as a bit of an old fart, I would expect the really bright ideas to blossom from the more recently-educated members.
A second major skill needed is the ability to design and fabricate the small bits of bracketry etc that may be required to affix motors, switches, etc to various types of scopes and accessories, etc. This is an area where I have absolutely no skills, but without these items, the end users are unable to achieve their goals.
Anyway, let's wait and see if there is sufficient IIS member interest to justify further dialogue, and if so we'll move on from there.
Last edited by mldee; 31-08-2009 at 10:39 PM.
Reason: Improve clarity "second skill needed"
Mike,
I like the concept of a GP USB controller. I'm a very recent addition to the observatory owner's list, so I expect to be becoming more interested in these add-ons, especially once I get up and running properly.
I look forward to more discussion, and if possible, contributing somehow.
Mike,
I like the concept of a GP USB controller. I'm a very recent addition to the observatory owner's list, so I expect to be becoming more interested in these add-ons, especially once I get up and running properly.
I look forward to more discussion, and if possible, contributing somehow.
Chris
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the input. If we can get 4 or 5 heads, I feel we could at least start sounding out some ideas and take it from there, it doesn't need a cast of thousands to get started.
I'll get back to you and Steve later this week after perhaps a few more have had a chance to consider joining in.
BTW, it doesn't really have to be specifically for observatory use, I imagine it could have significant usefulness to many others as well.
Mike I'm interested (depending on the direction it takes).
I've floated the idea of a general purpose mosfet power stage with Sparkfun and have been doing some tinkering with a PCB layout for one. So far my interest is to tidy up the power stage of my dew heater but I've got some other things in mind as well. If I do my own PC board I might look at throwing an ATMega chip on board and rely on an external serial to USB breakout board.
I've also been eyeing off some of the touchscreen/LCD modules available as a control interface for some projects I'm considering. I've not thought much about the main control coming via a USB but I'm guessing that it might still be useful to have local control. I've not worked out yet just how much I'd have to spend to get a decent sized module for that and for astronomy purposes some thought would have to go into what light the LCD used.
I've done some thinking about using Dallas 1-wire components for distributed control and may get back to looking at that some more. There seems to be some quite interesting devices in that range which might be great for reducing the amount of wires which need to go back to a main control point.
Thanks also for the input, seems like there is a nascent interest out there for some sort of unit to take care of basic astronomy operation and housekeeping functions. Interesting that such an item does not seem to be readily available too, at least at an affordable cost.
As I mentioned earlier, I'll give it another day or two for further expressions of interest, then get back to all responders.
I've been following your Dew heater thread, you are way ahead of my abilities, it's good to see interest from someone with an up to date technology outlook.
I'll get back to all probably on Thursday evening. If enough interest is shown, we can then kick off with some discussion over the following days of what functions we all think are useful, and examine the various implementation approaches that are 'doable' with low complexity and a reasonable cost, but expandable as new ideas evolve.
Mike it's been an interesting learning curve. I used to play with electronics many years ago but a lot has changed since. I'm loving some of what's becoming available at relatively low costs.
I did a Google on Vellerman last night, they have some other interesting kits as well. Sparkfun.com also is of interest.
Looks like we have about 4 or 5 prospective participants, that should be enough to at least let us put some ideas together and perhaps come up with an initial objective and plan forward.
One other area that is of some importance is small metal fabrication, such as mounting brackets for various scope/focusers, switches etc.
I'll get a post out tomorrow for general discussion points and perhaps we can exchange thoughts tomorrow night.
Mike I'll be out tonight (we are doing a viewing night with a school).
Bob
OK, no problem Bob, it just means you will have the luxury of reading all the other related posts when you get back, so that you can make more relevant comments than the rest of us
Mike a couple of points
- Possibility of providing control signals either by wireless and or wired ethernet. I've got a USB extender which can use cat 5 cable to send USB signals up to 60M (I think) but it would make sense to be able to use real network connectivity.
- Provision for some type of networking back to a master unit for remote sensors and or controls. Preferably one that does not require eveything to be directly wired back to the master (1-wire can handle extra stations added to the end of a line but I don't know if it's fast or versatile enough for all purposes)
Mike a couple of points
- Possibility of providing control signals either by wireless and or wired ethernet. I've got a USB extender which can use cat 5 cable to send USB signals up to 60M (I think) but it would make sense to be able to use real network connectivity.
- Provision for some type of networking back to a master unit for remote sensors and or controls. Preferably one that does not require eveything to be directly wired back to the master (1-wire can handle extra stations added to the end of a line but I don't know if it's fast or versatile enough for all purposes)
Bob
OK, Bob, Points taken.
I just came back inside to get started on my post, so will try to get the most salient points at this stage into some sort of order for discussion.
So far we have had expressions of interest in participating in developing this unit from Kinetic (Steve), Bert (Brett), ChrisM (Chris), Hikerbob (Bob), and myself, mldee (Mike).
First off, I'll reiterate the basic concept as discussed so far;
The perceived need for a simple and low-cost USB-based controller, (The IISbox?) to take care of the general astronomy and housekeeping tasks involved in doing general hobby-level astrophotography using a "remotely located" backyard observatory. Remote means "from your living room or such"
Tasks that come to mind include:
1 - Remote focussing of multi-telescopes with reasonably accurate focus status and limits.
2 - Remote sensing and control of temp, humidity and dew heaters.
3 - Remote monitoring and if necessary, control, of home-brew cooled camera systems, including possible development of a simple generic TEC system and controller.
4 - Remote monitoring of various supply voltages and chargers, IP-based security cameras etc.
5 - Alarms and reporting for various functions that may cause damage if ignored, including unauthorised entry.
6 - Various simple switching and controls as desired to do such things as operate Roll-off roof motors, air circulation fans, lighting, etc.
7 - Integration of the unit into a simple home LAN, wired and wireless.
8 - Possible future integration into commonly used scope control systems such as ASCOM.
What is it NOT meant to do: Anything that can be easily bought or done at the moment with existing items. This includes mount control and goto, camera control functions, image processing, sky charts, off the shelf scope adaptor hardware, breadmaking, etc, etc.
The intent is to fill the hole for items that are difficult or impossible for the average home-based astonomer to find or easily build.
We don't really want to get into investing loads of our time in circuit and board design, testing, etc, so the intent is to wherever possible, use off-the-shelf electronic assemblies such as electronic kits, etc, and integrate them with some accompanying simple PC-based control software so that the basic functionality above can be achieved. If a function can't be done with this approach, we probably shouldn't include that function in our first attempt.
Doesn't sound overly elegant, does it? But I believe it's the most cost-effective way to quickly achieve most of the objectives without spending excessive hours and needing PhD's to make it work. And the intent is a la Mal Bertel's;
Labour's free, the skills are free and the knowledge is free. Nobody get's paid or gets any rights to the item, me included. There will obviously need to be some form of organised approach to providing the finished unit concept to interested users, but we'll discuss that further down the line. We have enough on our plate now just to get the thing off the ground.
It may well be that as the project progresses, others may wish to join, great, and it may well be that as other ideas and skills become available, a bigger and more sophisticated approach may later become viable. I hope so, because it will mean that the initial objective has been reached successfully. But for the time being, it's a 'Keep It Simple' approach to start off.
BTW, skills needed in the group will include simple electronic integration, simple PC skills including basic LAN knowledge, simple programming in VB, C++, etc, some general aesthetic skills to see if we can make the thing look at least presentable in its final form, basic technical documentation, basic machine shop design/fabrication and large loads of enthusiasm and common sense.
I have electronic and PC/LAN skills, live in the west of Brisbane, am retired and have plenty of time on my hands (If you haven't already guessed!)
Time frame? I would guesstimate that a working breadboard of basic functions should be available for beta test in 3-4 months, subject to manpower and enthusiasm.
Enough from me, I'll leave it open to the floor for comments, suggestions and new ideas.
Last edited by mldee; 03-09-2009 at 04:57 PM.
Reason: spelling
I think this is definitely a good starting point for the
'smart box' concept. It has enough functionality to add lots
of gadgets to the remote Observatory.
At the very least, one good option anyway.
A few pics and some feedback...
* An easy kit to solder for the moderately confident solderer.(PIC 1)
* A nice layout board. (Techos will note that it's based around
a PIC 16C745 Microcontroller)
* Lots of feedback LEDS, LEDS for outputs, Pushbuttons for inputs.(PICs 2 & 3)
* All duplicated as terminal connectors as well.
* Addressable...I assume you could have 4 of these working simultaneously.(PIC 4)
* Velleman kits are well documented...easy to identify parts and
layout.
Now, the testing:
I had the option of powering it via the USB port (just for testing) by
leaving 2 jumpers in place.(PIC 4) You can power it externally also.
I also had the option of adjusting the 'gain' of the 2 analogue
inputs via a selection of resistor values.(PIC4 also)
Simply put, lets say you use one analogue input to read a thermistor
to measure temp. Selecting a resistor here gives you a meaningful
voltage value for displaying the temp.
The other inputs are digital, there are 5 of them.
You can turn them on and off with momentary pushbuttons (5) PIC 3)
Or you can do the same via switches wired to the terminals (a dome
door close limit switch for example)
You can also toggle any of the 5 Digital inputs directly from the
software demo display (PIC 5)
You can see from the output leds and the software that I have OUTPUTS 3,4 and 6
turned on.
You also have a 2 PWM outputs (great for a DC motor focus control for example) (PIC 5)
To summarise, I think this is a great experimenters prototyping board.
The DLL is supplied , as are some VB, C and Delphi examples on the driver disk.
PS: Great points Mike, I read your dot points....exactly the functions I have
in mind... Still to test this via remote desktop. I can't see why it wouldn't work
via RD.Edit: works like a charm!
PPS... and its Mel Bartels BTW
.
; either build it yourself from a kit of instructions, or buy one ready-made from a member who may like the pocket money to build and test it for you.
. 
. 
. There have been similar helpful simple one-man projects done here before, such as the EQ extender bar, which stimulated my interest. Steve Mogg's website is another for-profit example of specialised items. Good on him for having the machining skills to do it.
hence the idea of a joint "open-source" project.
.
