Best Arcsec per pixel camera for 8" F5 scope?

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

Hi All,

I have been reading Chris' thread about his monster scopes and cameras on the way and got to wondering, based on my modest little F5 200mm Skywatcher newt, which of these cameras in my price range would suit my scope the best.

As I have been struggling with Light Pollution, processing, the unmodded 1000D DSLR, MPCC etc etc, I have decided that the time is nigh for a cooled CCD up to about $1500 max.

Research has led me to the following, which I have plugged into CCD calc to look at the arcsec/pixel values and field of view display. However, I am not 100% sure of the optimum pixel size of the camera for my short 1000mm FL scope....hence the question.

Here is what I am looking at in order of preference;

1) QHY8L - $1450 - 6.1 megapixel, 7.8um pixel size (square), 3110 x 2030 pixels = 1.61 arcsec per pixel

This is the nicest looking, seems to have the best chip (Sony HAD) and has TEC cooling down to 35 deg below ambient.

2) Orion Starshoot V2 Pro - $1499 - basically the same chip (Sony 413AQ) - design, size, pixels, everything....except no guide port and temp cooling only -30 deg below ambient....? Same 1.61 arsec per pixel

3) Atik 320E - $1399 - 2.0 Megapixel however, 4.4um pixel size, giving an arsec/pixel of 0.91....the readout noise is extremely low, only 3e- compared to the above 2 cameras that say they are 8 to 10e-. I assume I could bring the arsec/pixel up by binning the camera to say 2x2 but the resultant image would be halved in resolution? Is that the way it works?

For the LP issue, I am also looking at a 2" IDAS LPS filter to help remove the Sydney junk from the sky near my house...as well as building a light box to take care of the flats that I have been procrastinating doing....

So the question is, for the combo I have, the HEQ5 Pro with the F5 200mm newt, I assume I can use the MPCC on the cameras (as I think I still need to as these are APS size chips like my 1000D), which OSC camera would give me the best arcsec per pixel ratio to maximise the results of my limited skills at capturing and processing my images?

Or, is there a better recommendation of a camera for the budget of which that I am unaware?

I would be interested in your thoughts and advice.

Thanks in advance

Chris

[Poita (Peter)]

I could probably spare my QHY8 for a week if you want to try it out, in about 3 weeks time or so.
It seems to laugh at LP for some reason, and is effectively noise free. I can't imagine living without it, I love the stupid square thing.

[RobF (Rob)]

I love the oversampling I get with the QHY9 on my F5 8" Chris, but really it's overkill except in the very best of nights. QHY8L very convenient to use and so many people get great images from them. Be interesting to see what people say though.

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

Originally Posted by Poita

I could probably spare my QHY8 for a week if you want to try it out, in about 3 weeks time or so.
It seems to laugh at LP for some reason, and is effectively noise free. I can't imagine living without it, I love the stupid square thing.

Wow, thanks Peter, what an offer! I could even probably kill two birds with one stone and come for a drive to get some time for my son's L Plates and pick it up. I assume from being 183km away and in NSW country that you are somewhere near Bathurst? A nice drive in the country for father and son, thats of course if you dont mind visitors....?

Cheers

Chris

Originally Posted by RobF

I love the oversampling I get with the QHY9 on my F5 8" Chris, but really it's overkill except in the very best of nights. QHY8L very convenient to use and so many people get great images from them. Be interesting to see what people say though.

Hey Rob......dont tempt me, the QHY9 on Gama is showing as $1650 for the OSC version.....6MP vs 8.3MP......hmmmmm that was my other droolworthy choice as I have seen some very nice images here with QHY9 and 10's.....

Either way, I am probably going to have to wait a bit for the funds as I need to either whack the boss to pay me a bonus thats due, or wait till my boat sells for the cash...I was going to build an observatory with the boat money, but I think a better camera is on the cards first before a permanent structure is built to house the scope....just in case....and if I get my bonus AND sell the boat, then, well, obs AND QHY....look OUT!

Therefore the timing of Peter's offer is excellent, it will allow me to try before I buy and the QHY is probably the preferred option, as long as the arcsec per pixel is AOK for my scope...

Cheers

Chris

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

Oh yeah, and damn it all to hell and back, Lesbehrens posted not just 5 days ago a QHY8 for $1K......damn damn damn damn, dont have $1K to chuck at it.

Anyway, it looks like it got snapped up not quite 30 mins after it was posted at 6:30 in the morning....

GRRRRR

Chris

[gregbradley]

Nikon D800 DSLR with 36.3 megapixels,full frame, low noise, low light performance but of course filtered. 4.88 micron pixels.

Still I think it would do well on brighter objects.

I plan to try one out soon so I can post sample images.

The QHY10 (I think its QHY10) I think it is with the 10mp sony sensor may be worth looking at.

Greg.

[RobF (Rob)]

Probably contentious, but I reckon for an experienced imager that can hold a guidestar steady for extended periods by whatever means it takes (with <$10,000 worth of gear!) a good cooled CCD camera is a great investment. I paid $3000 for my QHY9, but wouldn't have had a hope of seeing so much and getting so much satisfaction if I'd spent that on mount or scope. Lilkewise money spent on observatory won't help shooting faint fuzzy DSOs from the city or if you have a noisey camera

If you're setting up in the backyard when life, moon and weather allow, with the odd trip to country dark skies (and your rig can track well), money in the camera is way to go.....
Heck we've been lucky with what technology has thrown our way in recent years though. Hope you find some funds for a foray soon Chris.

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

Hmmm, thanks Greg,

Not sure if you are taking the piss or not, did you read the bit about me having only around $1500 to spend?

Me thinks the cameras you suggest are more than my budget. The D800 body only is $3K ish?

Cheers

Chris

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

Originally Posted by RobF

Probably contentious, but I reckon for an experienced imager that can hold a guidestar steady for extended periods by whatever means it takes (with <$10,000 worth of gear!) a good cooled CCD camera is a great investment. I paid $3000 for my QHY9, but wouldn't have had a hope of seeing so much and getting so much satisfaction if I'd spent that on mount or scope. Lilkewise money spent on observatory won't help shooting faint fuzzy DSOs from the city or if you have a noisey camera

If you're setting up in the backyard when life, moon and weather allow, with the odd trip to country dark skies (and your rig can track well), money in the camera is way to go.....
Heck we've been lucky with what technology has thrown our way in recent years though. Hope you find some funds for a foray soon Chris.

Thanks Rob,

Yeah, this is my line of reasoning as well, now that I can guide reasonably well (and perhaps better when I pull my finger out and do the PEC training) for up to 5 mins plus, and I have sorted the MPCC, the DSLR is really pushing the proverbial uphill in a wheelbarrow as it is noisy as hell most of the time and doesnt have great spectral response with the built in filter....

As you say, life, weather and the moon mean it is once a month (MAYBE) that I get a clear night on a Friday, Sat or Sun and even then I am buggered from mowing lawns or cleaning or something, so dragging the scope out the back and up the stairs, making sure the alignment is OK, power cords, laptop, table, chair, guidecam, DSLR battery, scope battery etc etc grinds on you a bit, especially when it takes about an hour to set up and then the clouds roll in.

An obs may shorten this, but then I am stuck with garbage photons that need Startools, PS, noise ninja, LPS filters, coolboxes and some black magic to be able to grind out the data from all the chaff captured.

So I concur, a nice cooled CCD is definitely the next best step, seems I have almost identical gear to you (go figure ) so if a QHY joins my family in the near future, I am sure I should be able to ward off the insanity that almost gripped me and dragged me under since Saturday night, from staring at the same crap day after day and trying to polish the proverbial turd that is my data.

Add to this, the 1000D is really my son's old camera, so I can then give it back to him for him to sell on and maybe buy himself some other gadget like a speed light to go with his new 550D he bought at Xmas.....

Win - Win

Cheers

Chris

[cventer]

Chris

2nd hand ST2000XM is also something to consider. 7.4um square pixels, built in guide chip.

[Paul Haese]

Anything with 5.4 um to 7.4 um pixels will work well for you. The QHY8 will be your best bet, but if you can stretch the budget try for something with a KAF8300 sensor in it. You will get years of use out of it with that image scale. 1.11 if my calcs are correct.

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

Thanks Paul.

I suspect the cheapest new Kaf 8300 chipped camera is the Orion parsec 8300 I've seen for about $2k....

That may push the friendship with swmbo but it's good to keep in mind.

Thanks

Chris

[Poita (Peter)]

Put out a QHY8 wanted ad here and on Atromart and on the QHYCCD yahoo group and you should pick one up for under a grand.
They regularly go for between $800 and $900.

I'm out at Mudgee, and sure, don't mind you dropping by to borrow the gear.

I'm off to UNE in armidale in the 2nd week of the school holidays, debating whether to take the camera with me, might be nice at that altitude. Anyone know if Armidale has good skies?

You are welcome to borrow it after that (or before if I don't take it), as I will have my exams and assignments due, so it will be removing temptation!

[Marke (Mark)]

Also consider the Atik 4000 or similar camera with that chip , it gets great results on a range of scopes. Its 4mp and 7.4 µM

[TrevorW]

Honesty the QHY8 is a great camera, although if the budget can stretch go for the 9 or 10 OSC

All the best and tell the missus it's an investment in her sanity

[alistairsam]

I have the QHY8 that I picked up from here for a bargain, and it is really good. I did have an issue with the CCD being slightly tilted that I fixed myself but the newer models have a tip/tilt nosepiece.
the noise is extremely low even for long subs and you don't really need darks for most targets, plus with 16bit, you can stretch images quite a bit.
very good value for money and a great starter camera for an OSC.

[gregbradley]

Originally Posted by Screwdriverone

Hmmm, thanks Greg,

Not sure if you are taking the piss or not, did you read the bit about me having only around $1500 to spend?

Me thinks the cameras you suggest are more than my budget. The D800 body only is $3K ish?

Cheers

Chris

Sorry Chris, I am just overly enthusiastic about the new Nikon. Probably not the most suitable camera anyway for astro work.

The Atik 4000 is good choice. I don't know what they cost though.
Leo's work with one on a RC10 scope is making images that match the finest around regardless of gear.

Greg.

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

Originally Posted by Poita

Put out a QHY8 wanted ad here and on Atromart and on the QHYCCD yahoo group and you should pick one up for under a grand.
They regularly go for between $800 and $900.

I'm out at Mudgee, and sure, don't mind you dropping by to borrow the gear.

I'm off to UNE in armidale in the 2nd week of the school holidays, debating whether to take the camera with me, might be nice at that altitude. Anyone know if Armidale has good skies?

You are welcome to borrow it after that (or before if I don't take it), as I will have my exams and assignments due, so it will be removing temptation!

Cheers Peter, let me know when its available and I will jump in the car with the eldest and head your way. I have stayed in Armidale a LOOONG time ago and it was dark, and crystal clear, no, WAIT, the skies there are crap, DONT take the camera....

Originally Posted by Marke

Also consider the Atik 4000 or similar camera with that chip , it gets great results on a range of scopes. Its 4mp and 7.4 µM

Hey Marke, yes I have looked at the Atik 4000, however, a bit too pricey at $4K - eeeek.

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Honesty the QHY8 is a great camera, although if the budget can stretch go for the 9 or 10 OSC

All the best and tell the missus it's an investment in her sanity

Hmmm, the $1650 QHY9 OSC is very tempting, must scrounge some more, although the slim QHY8L tickles my fancy somewhat....

Originally Posted by alistairsam

I have the QHY8 that I picked up from here for a bargain, and it is really good. I did have an issue with the CCD being slightly tilted that I fixed myself but the newer models have a tip/tilt nosepiece.
the noise is extremely low even for long subs and you don't really need darks for most targets, plus with 16bit, you can stretch images quite a bit.
very good value for money and a great starter camera for an OSC.

Hi Alistairsam, good to know about the noise qualities, i have had some "issues" with that on the DSLR recently, in case you missed it....
Thanks for the mini review

Originally Posted by gregbradley

Sorry Chris, I am just overly enthusiastic about the new Nikon. Probably not the most suitable camera anyway for astro work.

The Atik 4000 is good choice. I don't know what they cost though.
Leo's work with one on a RC10 scope is making images that match the finest around regardless of gear.

Greg.

No worries Greg, I didnt mean to sound harsh, I thought you may have had the rose coloured glasses still on...

the 4000 seems to be just that, $4000 for the LE version, a BIT too pricey for me, unfortunately...

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Although, I havent found out definitively what the ideal arcsec per pixel should be, it seems the glowing reviews of the QHY8,9 or 10 seem to suggest that it suits a range of scopes....seems like a very good choice to get one of these.

Cheers

Chris

[astronobob (Bob)]

Great info all as I been thinking to upgrade from the Dslr also in a year from now, have a couple of vacations planned between now & then ?
All the best with it & I will be looking on with interest Chris, I recently picked up an Orion 200mm F/4, cant wait to try with just the Slr actually : )

[Hagar (Doug)]

Hi Chris, The QHY8 while a great camera is now quite dated. You would be much better off saving for a little while longer and picking up a camera with a temp controlled cooling system. This makes darks a very simple task while the good old QHY8 just works flat out all the time which means darks are required for each set of images. Many will say that darks are not required with the Sony CCD's but if you want the best images then darks are always required.
Ant of the Sony chipped cameras or the 8300 chip will serve you very well.