State of the Oceans....

[morls (Stephen)]

There is a story in today's "Age" newspaper, and to me, it sounds very concerning...

http://www.theage.com.au/national/oc...621-1gdkx.html

[Miaplacidus (Brian)]

Sad but true. I can't see why this issue has to generate so much heat. For me (who believes in human induced climate change, by the way) it should be more about risk management. I mightn't believe that my house is going to burn down, but I still take out insurance.

[Oh, the post I was responding to seems to have disappeared.]

[xstream (John)]

Guys keep to the TOS and there won't be any problems.

There is no need for Pseudo Moderation.

Thankyou.

[morls (Stephen)]

And I'm not trying to open a debate about politics, or the rights and wrongs of the climate change arguments. I'm more interested in the actual content of this story, and how concerned the scientists are. To quote:

''The findings are shocking,'' said marine biologist and scientific director of the International Program on the State of the Ocean, Alex Rogers. ''We are looking at consequences for humankind that will impact in our lifetime and, worse, our children's and generations beyond that.''

"Australian panel participant Ove Hoegh-Guldberg, of the University of Queensland, said the report went beyond past warnings to say that the ocean was changing faster than was thought possible. ''We are seeing some changes to the life-support system of the planet, the ocean, which are things that we need to respond to, and we need to do it responsibly. To hear these experts talking very credibly in peer-reviewed literature about this notion of the planet heading to Armageddon, that's pretty scary,'' said Professor Hoegh-Guldberg."

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

There are other forums available to talk about politics... there have been many thread lockouts based on using the word politics. They get a bit heated.

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

Over fishing can be easily resolved by the establishment of fish farming. It is never too late to act but there is a proper way. So far all solutions offered are based on squeezing money out of consumer with no real attack on Climate change. I like the WA recent protection on marine parks in WA great step forward IMO.

I have seen business management first hand and none of the policies in place have no grounding to reduce pollution only to pay for the cost of it.

First change coal fired power station to either solar, hydro or nuclear is a clear start. Forced vehicle licencing rules similar to Darwin where every year cars need to be checked before they can be re-registered. but slugging the pocket by the introduction of taxes great way to make money not for saving the environment.

[xelasnave]

We should go back to oil lamps and farm whales just like we do with other livestock...its ok if they are killed nicely.
If the coral worries anyone research coral atol formation and you notice coral can manage sea level changes very well. To suggest the barrier reef will die denies reality.
Species extinction is inevitable unfortunately. It is accepted history and science that about 99.% of species are gone extinction is the rule and evolution the exception that enables some to survive.Any species that has made it to today is an exception.
It is nice some folk can feel guilt for human impact but sad others exploit such feelings of guilt simply for profit and power with "chicken little" stratagies.
Of more immediate concern. ...well make a list.
Many take the role of the fox and irrespective of the sky falling or not will dine well when all the chickens are sheltering in the chook house.
Just be happy knowing that not only will each of us die but in time our species will disappear and have no influence on the planet.

Finding a better energy source is needed because neither coal or NP are acceptable in the short long term.

[morls (Stephen)]

Hi Alexander,

I'm very interested in your views, particularly regarding extinction, coral reefs and "chicken little" strategies. I'm currently working my way through this video http://www.frontlineclub.com/events/...n-be-done.html . It's quite long, about an hour and a half, but the speakers are:

(In association with Communications Inc)

Chaired by Fiona Harvey, the Guardian environment correspondent.

With:

Don Hinrichsen, award winning writer and editor and author of Our Common Seas and Coastal Waters of the World, Trends, Threats and Strategies. He is currently the senior development manager for the Institute for War and Peace Reporting (IWPR) in London and writes frequently on environment, population and resource issues for a variety of publications in the US and Europe.

Dr Alex David Rogers, professor in Conservation Biology at the Department of Zoology, University of Oxford and senior research fellow at the Institute of Zoology, London. His research focuses on the diversity, ecology, conservation and evolution of marine species. A founder member of the IPSO project (International Programme on the State of the Ocean), bringing together world leaders in ocean science with the aim of winning policy change to save the health of the global ocean;

Richard Page, one of Greenpeace International's leading oceans campaigners with primary responsibility for coordinating the organisation's campaign for a global network of marine reserves covering 40% of the oceans. With Greenpeace for 18 years he has been heavily involved with the marine reserves campaign since its inception in 2003, both helping develop policy and implementing political and active campaign work;

Professor Charles R C Sheppard, professor at the department of Biological Sciences University of Warwick and tropical/marine environmental adviser for Foreign & Commonwealth Office’s Commissioner for UK Overseas Territories. He has been a participant on Intergovernmental Panel for Climate Change since 2002, fellow of Linnean Society of London, Conservation Fellow of Zoological Society of London and advisor to several tropical country governments on marine environmental affairs.

I wonder if you'd be interested in watching the video and then discussing the views of these people? They seem very concerned about the state of the ocean, and if they are right then things are way beyond "chicken little". I'd be very interested to get your opinions on what they are saying.

Cheers

Stephen

[Barrykgerdes]

We will get more and more of these half truths on saving the planet over the next few years but it will be of no avail. Nothing constructive will ever be done.

The real story is that the world human population is at least twenty times the level that can sustain the utopian standard of living that we all hope to achieve.

Carbon dioxide has nothing to do with it unless we remove the section of the carbon cycle that turns the Carbon dioxide back into oxygen and carbon. Photosynthesis from sun on the vegetation. Deaforrestation.

Governments will keep on passing laws to look like they are doing something about it but their's and our greed will defeat anything that could possibly improve the situation.

The ultimate result will be the armagedon that is forcast in the bible. We have the means now to destroy the world by fire. It will inevitably occur possibly within 50 years. Maybe the survivers will have the 1000 years of peace that is supposed to follow.

Barry

[morls (Stephen)]

Hi Barry,

I'm wondering what the half-truths on saving the planet are? I agree that population levels are becoming unsustainable, but maybe circumstances will force governments to take the situation seriously? Maybe too late, but is the alternative to simply say "it's inevitable that we will destroy the environment that sustains us, so why try to address the problems?"

I think that maybe some people are not prepared to look at these issues in the face, because the implication is, if things play out as many scientists fear, our survival is at risk. This is a very confronting proposition. I know that for me personally, the idea of the planet reaching a point where it cannot sustain life as it does today is very hard to comprehend, but I believe it is happening. To see professors and scientists who spend their professional time studying these issues look very worried and say the situation is 'very very depressing' is enough to convince me there is something very serious going on.

Stephen

[xelasnave]

I will if I can but already I suspect I would agree with what they are finding out. I suspect the only point we may be at odds would be the reef prospects.
The chicken little reference is not directed at people like them but at those who merely see profit opportunity in the situation.
Without looking at the vidio it is sadley clear fish stocks are in danger and generally things are in amess...I am not being political but stronger action is needed other than tax or trading as the money won't go to addressing tangible solutions.
I am sort of very green in my approach to energy consumption because I have no grid power. I know how many amps I use each day because I have limited production. ..one solar panel and 100 amp hour battery means I use max 25 amps a day....in addition I have 200 acres of trees I don't cut and sell. ..it annoys me to see rampant power consumption but I can safely say my carbon footprint is small.
If it were up to me no one could touch the sea it is so important and humans don't get it...the folk you refer me to no doubt do but I will check..but I have been reading alarming reports for years and they are never acted upon and I bet these reports will be used by others to drive adgendahs that won't save zip...
Now being honest do you really want my view or do you seek to point out my ignorance of the work being done by the folk to whom you refer. If you are seeking a debate I will take whatever side you don't want because debate brings attention and. I will happily be the mug if that means more folk engage the problems we face.
alex

[Gem (Grant)]

The world needs a global government to fix up the enviroment.

You can have some nations put in tougher fishing measures, but unless ALL nations try - you will have illegal fishing going around you.

I spent many years living in Zambia. There had not been a rubbish collection in the province since independence (1964), so ALL people burn their rubbish. We might have great recycling and rubbish collections here but until ALL people can join in the enviroment is going to suffer.

Most people in Zambia do not have electricity (us included for a while!) - so charcoal is used as the main fuel for cooking. The forests are being cut down and cut down and no one will replacing the trees (understandably because they are poor and only just scraping by).

Maybe our foreign aid should be in the form of providing recycling facilities and tree planting.

No simple solutions, but more needs to be done for a consistent solution across all the earth.

[xelasnave]

Humans are like rabbits..rabbits breed and breed eat all the grass to the point almost the whole warren dies out cause they have eaten themselves out of a home.
Consider the inhabitants of Easter island..they cut down every tree and eryone on that island could see that tree...seeing the problem is easy doing anything is hard

[morls (Stephen)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

....I suspect the only point we may be at odds would be the reef prospects.

Yeah, the reef prospects are at odds. Professor Charles R C Sheppard, who says his area of expertise is coral reefs, talks of reefs: (around 26:00 in the video)
"25% of reefs are dead, 25% will be dead in a few years because nothing is done about them, 25% have a chance of being saved, 25% are ok. They provide protein for....~700 million people"

I think he's taking also in terms of warming and acidification, rather than just sea level.

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Now being honest do you really want my view or do you seek to point out my ignorance of the work being done by the folk to whom you refer. If you are seeking a debate I will take whatever side you don't want because debate brings attention and. I will happily be the mug if that means more folk engage the problems we face.
alex

There's no way I was trying to point out your ignorance or otherwise about the people in this video...I was hoping to hear your responses to what they have to say. I think these guys are very seriously concerned about the health of the oceans, and like you, I want more people to engage the problems we face.

The video isn't all doom and gloom, there is a strong case put forward for lobbying politicians and the value being aware of our own individual footprints on the planet. Sometimes it seems that's all we can do, but these people think it's a valuable contribution, and every bit helps.

Cheers

Stephen

[xelasnave]

Steven the reefs upset me but from what I have learned.read.or used to form an opinion suggests the reefs come back and are capable of survival despite what nature or humans dish out. Or put another way reefs survive rather well. Think about how old the Great Barrier Reef must now be and the changes in sea levels etc in its history.
However the foxes point to its demise if we don't tax something or impose a levy and yet the sky still falls.
The hypocracy of the foxes is abhorrid is my cry.
Let's face it the picture painted by many including the good men you referred me to is serious...Well if its serious whatabout real action...no cars with motors over 1000cc.. check what the foxes drive...Al has or had a V12.Check what our foxy polititians use...the hypocracy sickens me and that is what I attack....
I live what others preach...I can't cntrol the climate or other actions so I do my thing and conserve energy. I don't throw out clothes because they go out of fashion but many do while they cry about the lack of action.
Most folk are onto the hypocracy and opportunism surrounding climate change that is why serious issues miss support...not that folk dont accept we have major problems but rather they see how some profit using the reports of good scientists to scare cash out of folk.
As to the reefs I don't want them damaged but simply suggest they will survive ven if humans do not.
Keep up your good work. Look thru your scope and appreciate we are almost less than insgnificant and the universe won't grind to a halt because of our action or inaction.

[PeterM]

I personally think we have more immediate issues to be very concerned about today. Issues that are hurting many right now.
The massive Banking/Corporate financial crisis just a few years ago was (and continues to be) bailed out by astronomical and somewhat uncontrolled government stimulus spending - your money, and by smoke and mirrors it seemed to work but without solving the cause. Next it seems may well be a massive Country/Government financial crisis and where will that bail out come from?
Sure, pour all the money you can afford into saving the planet, oceans - it's your money. If man made CO2 indeed turns out to be the culprit, I would bet it will be a smoke and mirrors solution anyway.
But it will come out of your pocket regardless, and right now an increasing number of people even reading this are already struggling. Keeping a small businesses afloat, paying the mortgage, straining under extortionate increased costs to the basics of living, electricity, water, food, shelter, fuel.
I think Alex hit the nail on the head with his rabbit analogy.
We all delighted in our home values spiraling making us pseudo rich and now we are concerned on how the heck our kids and grand kids will ever own a home let alone pay for it.
So what's my solution you ask - dunno, we all want our cake and to eat it as well.

PeterM.

[xelasnave]

There is only one approach to living that I have found valid. The acceptance of personal responsibility means we must accept our invopvement in the creation of the problem we face...whatever it is...but from there one realises the importance of leading by example..I was near taken in by Al G until it was clear he did not practice what he preached.
Peter you are so correct about inaction when action is called for...there have been many crashes and little reform comes from the disasters that ruin good hard working folk.
I must say since I got the boat 2yrs ago I have been impressed with the regulatioj of the Hawksberry river. Prior to gettijg the boat I thought I would work on it up a creek someplace...well you can't do that anymore...when the boat is on the slip there is a dirty water trap so opd paint etc does not go into the river...so it is better than it was...anyways when I get to the barrier reef I will keep an eye on it...maybe go to Easter Island to plant trees hunt rabbits and erradicate foxes.
We must demand our leaders play the game...don't drive a V12 and tell me I should ride a bike. ...don't wring your hands only to conclude there is money in this new crisis

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by PeterM

I personally think we have more immediate issues to be very concerned about today. Issues that are hurting many right now.
The massive Banking/Corporate financial crisis just a few years ago was (and continues to be) bailed out by astronomical and somewhat uncontrolled government stimulus spending - your money, and by smoke and mirrors it seemed to work but without solving the cause. Next it seems may well be a massive Country/Government financial crisis and where will that bail out come from?
Sure, pour all the money you can afford into saving the planet, oceans - it's your money. If man made CO2 indeed turns out to be the culprit, I would bet it will be a smoke and mirrors solution anyway.
But it will come out of your pocket regardless, and right now an increasing number of people even reading this are already struggling. Keeping a small businesses afloat, paying the mortgage, straining under extortionate increased costs to the basics of living, electricity, water, food, shelter, fuel.
I think Alex hit the nail on the head with his rabbit analogy.
We all delighted in our home values spiraling making us pseudo rich and now we are concerned on how the heck our kids and grand kids will ever own a home let alone pay for it.
So what's my solution you ask - dunno, we all want our cake and to eat it as well.

PeterM.

The solution??...it won't happen overnight and we will have to go through pain to get to our goals.

1. Dump our present socioeconomic system and replace it with a system that rewards people not for competition and monetary gain, but for contribution to the growth and sustainability of all of society. No more money, no more banks or financial institutions etc etc. No more corporations. If you like...a "Star Trek" socioeconomic system.

2. Abolish national governments and military organisations. One world government and military (if necessary), run by the people but with an "executive" that is voted on by everyone, strictly controlled. No political parties or organisations. Holding of office based on merit, not on how much money you have or who you know or what party you belong to. Strict 4 year terms, but can be elected for 2 terms if you prove your worth. No more politicians.

3. Prioritise education, science etc, as the main goals of the society. Universal laws of civil rights, freedom of speech etc. World constitution. Either abolish or completely restructure the UN as a kernel to the above.

I'll leave it at that...there's a lot more that can be said. But if we combine socioeconomic change with a re-education of society over a period of time, it will become easier for us to make the changes necessary to live sustainably on Earth, but it won't be a task without some amount of pain involved. The problem being we've been inculcated with our present ways of thinking and doing for so long that it will take a few generations to weed out that which is killing us and our planet. And those who are most wedded to the present system are going to be those who will find it the hardest to accept the change that is needed. If they accept it at all.

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

Here here great stuff totally agree. People need to live for the betterment of the planet not the corporation.

I think it is true that it is possible to get through this but heaps of pain to go through. Cost of electricity has risen to stop subsiding and allow real cost of production. This will allow greener more expensive energy to take a foothold in the industry.

Solar panel on more roofs, and compulsory for rental properties to get them installed.

Originally Posted by renormalised

The solution??...it won't happen overnight and we will have to go through pain to get to our goals.

1. Dump our present socioeconomic system and replace it with a system that rewards people not for competition and monetary gain, but for contribution to the growth and sustainability of all of society. No more money, no more banks or financial institutions etc etc. No more corporations. If you like...a "Star Trek" socioeconomic system.

2. Abolish national governments and military organisations. One world government and military (if necessary), run by the people but with an "executive" that is voted on by everyone, strictly controlled. No political parties or organisations. Holding of office based on merit, not on how much money you have or who you know or what party you belong to. Strict 4 year terms, but can be elected for 2 terms if you prove your worth. No more politicians.

3. Prioritise education, science etc, as the main goals of the society. Universal laws of civil rights, freedom of speech etc. World constitution. Either abolish or completely restructure the UN as a kernel to the above.

I'll leave it at that...there's a lot more that can be said. But if we combine socioeconomic change with a re-education of society over a period of time, it will become easier for us to make the changes necessary to live sustainably on Earth, but it won't be a task without some amount of pain involved. The problem being we've been inculcated with our present ways of thinking and doing for so long that it will take a few generations to weed out that which is killing us and our planet. And those who are most wedded to the present system are going to be those who will find it the hardest to accept the change that is needed. If they accept it at all.

[xelasnave]

Sounds simple enough Carl what should we do first.
Designing Utopia is easy making it work is where one comes to grief.
But you are so right. ..not only here but in other posts where you sheet home the influence of certain economic realities etc.
Politics suffers from where they draw the leaders...we use Lawers too much but that is marginally better than leaders from military background.
alex