Beginner Help Please

[NatalieR (Natalie)]

Hi there,

I'm after some help from more experienced star gazers in chosing a solid telescope for my star addicted 10 year old daughter and the rest of the family.

By way of background, my daughter has always been fascinated with the stars and is very familiar with the objects that she can see in the night sky (as in being able to find constellations and planets etc). We were given an old Newtonian telescope by a friend who had bought it at K-mart many years ago. It's old and difficult to align so it doesn't get dragged out much but she has managed to see the rings of Saturn through it which was exciting. I think we're now ready to step it up a level and would rather spend decent money now than go cheap and want to upgrade in 12 months.

I've been researching for months now as to what would suit us best but would really appreciate other's opinions. Here's our list of requirements.

* Something that can be adjusted by a petite 10 year old would be most helpful. This is mostly for her - we're just riding on her coat tails

* We would like to do AP so an EQ mount with good auto-tracking would be great.

* I would really like the Go To functions. The plan would be for her to point out what she can see with the naked eye and then use the computerised capabilities of the scope so that she's still learning her way around the sky.

* I would also like something that has a relatively simply aligning feature as we often head down to the coast and would like to take the scope with us (to share the experience with the grandparents!).

* Something that we can slowly add to with better eyepieces, filters, etc would also be good.

* The ability to upgrade the OTA on the same mount would be nice but isn't completely necessary.

We have around about $3,000 to spend give or take a bit. We were thinking of something around the 9.25" range so that it's big - but not too big. We don't want to buy a toy as she has expressed a desire to eventually study astronomy/astrophysics at Uni (and she's been saying this for at least 4 years now) and we'd like to give her heaps of positive reinforcement between now and then.

Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers...Nat

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

Hi Natalie,

9.25" is pretty big, and for that size/budget you would generally be looking at a newtonian or a Schmidt Cassegrain (SCT) design on say and HEQ5 Pro or HEQ6 Pro mount.

Now you already mentioned about the alignment (collimation) of the newtonian mirrors has been an issue, so perhaps an SCT would be better for you all for a couple of reasons....

1) The tube is MUCH shorter and more compact than a traditional Newt
2) Less fiddling around with collimation (not that hard really), but less overall.
3) GREAT scopes for planets as their longer focal length compared to newts allows for higher magnifications. For example, my 200mm (8") newtonian has a focal length of 1000mm which makes it an F5 scope and with a 10mm eyepiece, I get 100x magnification (FL/EP). Now on say a CPC Celestron 8" SCT has a focal length of 2000mm which means you would get 200x mag from the same 10mm eyepiece. This is due to the folded light path design of the SCT.
4) Shorter SCT design means easier to handle and view through. Tube Length of the SCT mentioned above is around 17" or about 430mm. In comparison, my 8" Newt is over 1000mm long and the eyepiece position changes depending on where it is pointing on the Equatorial mount. On an SCT, the focuser is on the back and stays there no matter where it points.
5) Having an EQ mount means you wont get field rotation of the object you are looking at for AP. Fork mounted SCT's are effectively Alt AZ mounts meaning what ever you are looking at will slowly rotate in the eyepiece over time, meaning AP is harder or you have to buy an expensive and fiddly de-rotator to compensate.

Now, I am not an expert by any means, just some info I have gathered over time, more experienced members will chime in no doubt to correct anything I may have overlooked or got wrong.

FYI, I have a 8" Black Diamond newt on an HEQ5 pro which sells for around $1400 from Andrews Comms. Based on your budget of $3K, this is around half, this scope is MORE than capable of visual, goto, AP and deep sky objects and by having $1500 left to spend on cameras, coma corrector, filters, adaptors and eyepieces makes it a very nice bang for your buck price point to get you started.

The goto and computer control as well as the fast F5 ratio mean that my inner geek is kept happy and I can take AP shots quicky and cheaper than an expensive rig (although at a lower quality, obviously), after all, you do get what you pay for, however, it is not inconcievable to spend $5-6K on a serious AP rig if you arent careful.

Here is a post discussing my purchase as well as a pic of the rig with me standing next to it, I am 6 foot 9 and the tripod is all the way down, so you can see it is not quite the smallest thing, one reason why I suggest an SCT for your daughter....

Hope this helps,

Cheers

Chris

[NatalieR (Natalie)]

Chris,

Thanks for the response and the information. I agree that your rig is huge - one thing we don't want is for my daughter to need a step ladder to actually see anything. So as you said, the SCT will probably be a better choice for us.

I'm just finding it all a bit overwhelming and confusing at the moment. Hubby likes the Celestron CGEM 8" with a good EP perhaps. Will do a bit more reading I think.

Thanks again.

Nat

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

Hi Natalie,

I admire your enthusiasm for your daughter's excitement in astronomy. But just a few notes of caution, from another parent.

Your daughter is 10, and petit you say. Unless you and your husband are prepared to either construct a permanent observatory for her current interest, there is no way that your daught will be able to set up any telescope on an equatorial mount of the price range you mention in spending. These things are just so big and heavy, and unforgiving if dropped.

Are you prepared, as the only other alternative to a permanent set up, to set up the rig everytime she wants to use the telescope? And any equatorially set up scope requires time to align. Not seconds or minutes. The whole process is quite involved.

I strongly suggest to reconsider the style of telescope you would like to purchase. Today's Go-To dobsonians will not only find and track, but are also capable of allowing some astrophotography. Things like the Moon and planets are well within the range of extremly high quality final photos with only a dobsonian mounted scope and the appropriate software.

These telescopes are also much more easy to set up and move around. Though still considerable in size, and weight, they can be placed on a simple trolley to move around, and are set up and running in under five minutes. And something a reasourceful, enthusiastic 10 year old could manage with mum and dad around to lend a hand if needed.

If the enthusiasm to continue on the astro path is still there when she is older, and bigger, you and her, can revisit the more complex telescope question.

I am trying to offer practical advice. While an equatorially set up rig looks impressive, they are complex machines that can quickly dampen enthusiasm. You can spend all the money you want on a rig, but the only 'good' telescope is the one the most gets used. Not the fanciest looking.

If your daughter is excited about astronomy, get her something that will suit her age and size, and one that will grow with her. Don't write-off a dobsonian mounted telescope. These instruments are much more capable than they are given credit for.

Kind regards,

Alex.

[Brian W (Brian)]

It is not only huge as in big and tall but it is heavy. There is no possible way a petite 10 year old will be able to handle that by herself.

Please go to a local star party or dealership and find out what she can handle.

Too much of a telescope will be just as much of a problem as too little.

I am 5' 10' and I found observing with an 8" SCT difficult. Moving it was a challenge too.

I can use and move an 8" dob mounted reflector with ease and view while sitting down.

Look into a dob mounted reflector with GOTO and possibly tracking... it could answer all your needs.

Final thought, an 8" reflector will give a life time of observing and with all the accessories available it can be used in most areas of observing so while it is possible to outgrow it it is not a given that your daughter or your family will..

Brian

[NatalieR (Natalie)]

Alex,

Thank you - these are all things that are on our pros and cons list. A permanent structure in the backyard is a possibility - just not yet.

We understand that she won't be able to handle anything much by herself at this stage but as my husband and I also have an interest in star gazing it's not a major hassle for us to help her drag out whatever it is we end up getting, and setting it up.

Brian - thanks for your comments too.

All food for thought - looks like I need to go and do some more reading on Dobs.

Nat

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

Hey Natalie,

Like Brian said, see if you can get to an astro-club before you lay your money down. You can then see both styles of scopes in action. From set up, to use, and take down. The asto-club lisiting in the "Our Community" heading in the left margin.

Even do it twice. The first time is all very exciting, and garranteed you will come away even more starry eyed. A second visit will see you with a better understanding.

[erick (Eric)]

Hi Natalie

As Alexander suggested, one of the collapsible GOTO dobsonians might be just what you need here, eg. the Skywatcher Synscan 10" GOTO Dobsonian which sells for $1,499 at Bintel:-

www.bintelshop.com.au

It is a good visual observing telescope and can also allow some basic photography.

The 8" for $1,099 is more easily handled and would give some years of pleasure.

But, remember, there is nothing better than getting under dark skies to see most interesting objects. If you are in surburbia, then you do need a portable telescope to be able to travel to sites away from city lights and bright skies. Both the scopes above will be fairly easy to transport, the 8" moreso.

And yes, you will slowly buy better eyepieces than those supplied. Almost everyone does. Expect to spend another $1,000 on eyepieces over a couple of years.

[barx1963 (Malcolm)]

I can only back up what the others have said. Alex Chris and Brian all know their stuff. The bit about getting to observing nights is the best advice anyone can give.
The only thing I can add is admiration for you as parents encouraging your daughter in her interest. Keep up the good work

[NatalieR (Natalie)]

Thanks for all the help guys. This is a huge learning curve for me (as well as my daughter) and trying to compare one thing with another is a bit difficult. We are members of the local astronomy group but feel a bit lost there at the moment - this seemed like a safe haven for a newbie

We understand that it's the scope that gets used that is the best one for us - we want something that isn't going to frustrate her to the point where she stops enjoying it, so the goto/skyscan part is important to us. As was also said, being somewhat portable is important for us as well as we get plenty of dark nights down at my parents place.

I'm now heading towards the 8" auto everything dobs. Looks like it will hit the nail on the head for us.

Thanks again - I look forward to reading and learning.

Nat

[erick (Eric)]

8" aperture - great place to start. Many on this site started there.

[Suzy]

Hi Natalie

Originally Posted by barx1963

I can only back up what the others have said. Alex Chris and Brian all know their stuff. The bit about getting to observing nights is the best advice anyone can give.
The only thing I can add is admiration for you as parents encouraging your daughter in her interest. Keep up the good work

Agreed. Fantastic advice from everyone.

Just make sure whatever you get will all fit into the car along with the family when you go visiting.

I hope these following links will be of help to you:
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-260-0-0-1-0.html
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/63-261-0-0-1-0.html


Natalie, it's highly likely that this won't be the last scope you get, believe me. I always think it's a good idea not to put all of your money into your first purchase, until you learn more about what it is you actually want out of a telescope. That's a lot of money to throw at your first serious scope. I just think that as her interest grows, so should a scope that she can handle.

Size and setting up really is an issue as Alex said, and one that should be considered very carefully. Are you prepared to spend the time it takes in setting up/aligning an EQ mount everytime your daughter wants to observe? I hear many stories of how long this procedure takes (I think it can be up to an hour from the stories I've heard (?) )

I think it's fantastic you are encouraging her to the level you are, and I also understand that you and hubby are keen stargazers, but realistically, are you really going to want to set it up every time your daughter wants to use it? I apologise if I'm being presumptuous, but I can see a lot of wars happening... And I'm not even talking about the frustration of having to adapt to weather patterns (often is the case by the time you finish setting up, the clouds gather).

And here's a classic example of "why the best scope is the one you will use the most" example:

Me.

I own a 10" solid tube dob.
Due to renovations, I'm unable to have my 10" dob downstairs (mostly used on the deck at the moment, not ideal & only view to the south). It's physically impossible for me to carry it downstairs and outside by myself -even dismantled- I'm 5 5" and 42kg). Like your daughter, I too am petite.
My old 6" I could easily carry by myself (dismantled, base, then tube).
-Observing days outside with my 10" since January: 1 (one)
-Observing days outside if I still had my 6": As much as I wanted, weather
permitting.
-Observing days outside with my binos since January: numerous.


Sure I can get hubby to carry it out for me more regularly (dismantled), but as much as he encourages and supports my hobby, there is grizzling (and I don't blame him) and I don't like to bother him too often. Now a dob doesn't take much time to set up at all- but it's still an issue, as my case reflects. Presumptuous I am again maybe, but I think you'll end up being "bothered" a lot.

My suggestion? Go an 8 inch dob. Start with it anyway. You can get them in solid tubes or collapsible, both with go-to.

Adding to that, I see one of your requirements is astro-photography. Did you mean happy snaps or full on AP? If it's the latter, I say "yikes" for a 10yr old- and just hope you have a bottomless wallet. Perhaps even say goodbye to visual observing.

Just my experience and 2c for whatever it's worth Natalie.
I wish you all the best with your decision and hope you continue to be part of our community.

[NatalieR (Natalie)]

Suzy,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply and the links - interesting articles. We're now sold on the idea of the dob but with the full goto/synscan setup and buying a really good eyepiece to go with it.

I've spent most of today reading articles on the net and this site regarding the dobs and have decided that either casters or a trolley of some sort will be the way to go whether we settle on an 8 or 10 inch. It will live in the garage (until I convince hubby to knock down the peach tree and build us an observatory!) and get rolled/wheeled out when we want it. We're lucky to live in a fairly dark patch of suburbia with neighbours who kindly turn all their lights off by 8pm so we normally just setup the old scope in the middle of the driveway.

The astrophotography will be happy snaps at the start and if she (or hubby) decide they want more then I'm sure we'll end up getting something different for that specific role. For the moment, I'd just like my daughter to be able to see something a bit more than she currently can with the cranky old bit of kit we've got.

As for the money, I've been working towards this for a while now and wanted to get something that will keep her interested - not tick her off because it's difficult to setup and use. I had thought (incorrectly obviously) that the fancy EQ mounts that were computerised were going to be easier for her. I'm glad that I found out that's definately not the case :-)

Thanks again - I look forward to hanging around and learning more.

Nat

[Brian W (Brian)]

[QUOTE=NatalieR;711337]Suzy,

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply and the links - interesting articles. We're now sold on the idea of the dob but with the full goto/synscan setup and buying a really good eyepiece to go with it.

Natalie, having decided on a dob mounted reflector you have now entered an even more interesting, might I say confusing, arena... eye pieces.

Everyone has their own favourite set up but I have never heard of anyone with only one really good ep. You may well find that ep's are the same as telescopes different ep's do different things very well.

What will work very well for finding the dim little fuzzy patch that is an open cluster will probably not work so well to get the absolute best view of a crater on the moon.

So different ep's for different objects.

Prices are also incredibly variable. Orthoscopic (various brands) have excellent optical qualities but a comparatively narrow apparent field of view and are quite modestly priced

Naiglers have optics that are (arguably) no better but they have this incredibly wide apparent field of view that some people are willing to pay a seriously premium price for.

Whatever scope you buy will come with one or two ep's of reasonable quality and might I suggest you not be in a rush to upgrade to better quality. Take your time, find out what ep's are needed to see what you really enjoy looking at and then start buying.

Brian

[erick (Eric)]

Hey Natalie, I recommend the collapsible, having seen and handled a few now. They are easier to handle and transport, and have the great advantage that it can be adjusted so the upper assembly isn't fully raised (several cm short of the top) but still is secure. Why would you want that? Well, if you get as far as putting a camera into the focusser, you would discover that, with a solid tube unit, you may not be able to get the camera to focus. By not raising the upper assembly all the way, you will be able to get a camera to focus for some astrophotography.

One extra item you should get is a light shroud to wrap around the open part of the scope. You should be able to easily make one, but you may need one or two plastic hoops to hold the material away from the light path. Pulling it tight across the three struts will likely block out some of the light that is coming from the stars and down the tube. A shroud is useful for:-

* Keeping extraneous light (streetlights, houselights, general sky glow) away from the inside of the tube - you just want the light coming from directly above the scope.
* Help keep dew from forming on the primary mirror (and stopping dust/dirt/leaves/cats getting in!)
* For when you drop something - it bounces off the shroud onto the grass (hopefully, not concrete) and doesn't fall onto your primary mirror - ouch!

Let us know how you go.

Once you have one, come back here and we can discuss important issues such as collimation, alignment of the finderscope, alignment of the telescope, what to look at and how to find it, how best to power it, when might you see colour in things, what eyepieces would be best - lots of good things!

ps. Your daughter can cope with the cold, lack of sleep, fighting off the mossies, being in the dark etc.?? All part of the hobby, I'm afraid. And did I mention extreme patience when it is clouded out for weeks on end!

[kitsuna (Adam)]

Welcome Natalie

I too have recently caved and bought myself a dob scope. Speaking as one who's just taken the plunge, I might be so bold as to suggest a few additional worthwhile items;

1. The Backyard Astronomer's Guide (MUST be 3rd edition).

This book covers pretty much EVERY part of practical amateur astronomy.

It covers everything from buying your first scope (what to do, and what not to do), explains how eyepieces work (and what's good and what's not), has a raft of chapters on astrophotography and how to get started. It also covers what to observe, and how to observe.

It even covers things like collimation very well (something you'll have to do with a newtonian). Speaking as someone who'd only ever read about collimation (in that book) before I bought my first scope, I have to say that once you do it the first time, it becomes very easy to understand how to do it in future.

I got mine thru amazon, and with the way the au dollar is going at the moment, it's worth snapping up.

2. Cheshire eyepiece for collimation. There are other options (lasers etc), but a cheshire eyepiece is simple, and it works.

3. as a first eyepiece upgrade, I personally recommend a 24mm (or similar size, depending on the focal length of the scope you end up buying) Panoptic from Televue. The reasons for this can be outlined in this thread:

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=74009

A lot of people have their favorite eyepieces, and it's true that you will eventually need to get different eyepieces for different jobs (in the same way that you have different scopes for different jobs), but I've not yet heard a bad word about this particular eyepiece, and I'm convinced that you'll get an awful lot of mileage out of it. It's a winner.

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

Excellent that you have decided on the dob with GoTo.
They are brilliant!

Get her to see as much as possible before she becomes a professional Astronomer or Astrophysicist as they hardly ever (or never) look through telescopes in their jobs.

[NatalieR (Natalie)]

Morning all,

Brian - we're certainly going to take our time building up a collection of eyepieces. We will possibly invest in just one good one for the time being.

Erick - went looking at shrouds last night. I'd wondered how you kept extra light out of the centre of the scope! Miss 10 (Em) says that she's quite happy to freeze or be bitten and as she's a night owl, getting no sleep isn't a problem for her.

Kistuna - thanks so much for your list of information. We ordered the Backyard Astronomer's book last night through Fishpond.com.au (around $32 including free postage). When I get the telescope I'll be sure to get the Cheshire EP as well. That EP looks like something to go on the shopping list as well.

Ballaratdragons - what you said is so true. My PhD supervisor's hubby is a part of the Research School of Astronomy at my Uni. Em asked my supervisor what her hubby did now and she replied "raises funds for museums". Not quite what Em had in mind!

Thanks once again everyone. I'm going to ring up and place an order today - still tossing up between the 8" and the 10"

Nat

[mental4astro (Alexander)]

An 8" is brilliant.

But if you can stretch the budget to a 10", even better.

[NatalieR (Natalie)]

That's what I thought. We can definately do the 10" as the cost of it, a good eyepiece, external power and some other bits and bobs is still well under what I'd put away for the telescope. The local club that we're members of do monthly dark sky nights on member's properties outside of town...something that after doing more reading last night will greatly benefit the 10". It still makes it pretty manouverable as it will come straight out of the garage - and looking at the dimensions it will still fit in the X-trail.

Might have another cuppa and then make a call

Nat