New setup questions

[scagman (John)]

Hello everyone,

First time poster.

I’ve been looking into getting a new telescope for a while now. The telescope I had was a very cheap tasco with a wooden tripod that wood shake and wobble when anything looked at it, that was bought for me years ago. With the aid of little bits of paper poking out of all the sloppy joints and things I was able to see a few things.

After my initial search I thought I would go with a meade lx200 8” as these looked good and had a goto system and could be used for DSO imaging with a few additions.

So I started to check them out on the web and see what I would need to take good shots and what would be involved.

I came up with a list of things I would need.

LX200 8”
Meade Ultra-Wedge
The Imaging Source DMK 21 Mono USB CCD Camera
Orion Awesome Autoguider Package
Focus Reducer
Counter Weights
Plus other bits that I cant think of (adaptors etc)

I knew I would have to save some more so I kept researching and reading but unfortunately the more I read, the more questions come up. Researching these questions only lead to more questions. This in turn has lead me to other options and setups and eventually confusion.

So I looked at the GSO 8” and 10” RC mounted on a G11 non “goto” mount. ( I am assuming that I could connect to a computer and use software and the autoguider as a “goto” altnerative when needed).
Then the Edge HD OTC’s and 127” apo.

I have read pro’s and con’s for all that I look at and decided that all are good/bad for various reasons, the main being Focal Ration, and there is no easy ‘plug and play’ and away you go setup.

So at the moment I am leaning towards the following setup.

127mm ED APO
G11 Non goto mount
The Imaging Source DMK 21 Mono USB CCD Camera
Orion Awesome Autoguider Package
8 x 50mm Viewfinder

1) I would like to know if this setup is something a beginner would be able to master(get it to a useable state at least) with time and patients? ( I am a very patient person)

2) What other accessories am I likely to need. A reducer?
3) I have been reading the forums on the 127mm ED APO from North Instruments (china) and get the impression these are well worth the money. Are they the same as the Meade? Has anyone purchased one lately?

I hope the above all makes sense and I don’t just sound like some blabbering idiot. I have that much information/questions floating around in the void between my ears that it is hard to put everything together to create a system that works. I realise no two setups are the same and everyone has/uses different objectives and ways of obtaining them.

I am sure as time goes by I will need(want) to add things that will improve end results but to start I would like to put together a setup of what I need to get things up and running and getting use to using the mount and setting it up correctly.

I hope this isn’t to long winded, looking forward to your advice and views and suggestions.

Please note all advice/views and suggestions given will probably lead to more questions if thats ok.


Regards
John

[barx1963 (Malcolm)]

Hi John
I am very far from an imager, but have done a fair bit of research while preparing to take the plunge into it. One quick query, why the DMK 21 mono? As I understand it is a lunar and planetary camera but you mention DSO imaging. These cameras are mainly for bright objects as they use a high frame rate to capture lots of frames.
You may need to clarify what target you are after as from your post you are looking to spend a fair bit and the requirements for solar system and DSO imaging are quite different.

Malcolm

[scagman (John)]

Hi Malcolm,

I am heading towards DSO imaging.
I havnt done to much research into the CCD side of things. I suppose I was keeping the price down. also looked at the Meade DSI II. I would like to start with B/W then move onto color filters. I am still tailoring this setup and I am wide open for suggestions.

Thanks for the headsup,

Regards,
John

[pjphilli (Peter)]

Hi John

I have travelled down the road that you now appear to be on.
I started with a DSI Color and then got a DSI2. In my Sydney location
mutiple imaging with guiding is almost a necessity. The beauty of the DSI2
is that you can set a star and the camera will automatically track on the star as it takes successive images (note this is not to be confused with guiding with a separate camera/scope), stack the images and provide a composite when you have finished. You may also take a suite of dark frames off line and the DSI2 will automatically subtract the appropriate dark frame. You can also keep all separate images for stacking and adjusting offline to provide a better result.

The DSI2 is a great economic colour camera and the Envisage software (when you get to understand how to use it) is very good. You may see comments to the contrary but I can only assume that these are from people who have not bothered to learn how to use it. As a starter, I decided on a colour camera rather a mono (which of course has more sensitivity) because I had seen the results of beginners in attempting to merge colours.

However, properly exposed and merged colours from a camera with luminosity/red/green/blue imaging are superb when handled by an expert.

After a while I saw that the definition of the DSI2 could not be compared with that obtained from DSLR. I now have a modified Canon 400D which has a chip size of 22mm compared with the DSI2 6mm wide. Pixel density
is also higher with the Canon. This provides a much better definition on a screen size image compared with the DSI2. However, it is necessary to modify the Canon to remove its original Infrared stop filter and have it replaced with an external astro filter. I choose to use an external infrared/light pollution filter. Also the Canon is noisier and requires exposure lengths 2 or three times that of the DSI2. (You don't get something for nothing in this game!).


Looking ahead, if you are considering getting a scope go for one with a 2 in focuser in case you wish to change to a DSLR or high end CCD in future.

So in summary, the DSI2 is a nice starter camera but keep in mind possible upgrade to a DSLR (or preferably to a high end, big chip, cooled
CCD camera if you can afford it!). With this configuration the DSI2 makes a very good guiding camera and is still good for small dim objects such as galaxies.

By the way my scopes are a Meade 80mm f6 apo refractor, Ritchey
Chretien f8 astrograph, HEQ5Pro mount. Scopes are used for imaging or guiding depending on what field of view I want.

Hope this helps.

Cheers Peter

[scagman (John)]

Hi Peter,
Thanks for the info.
At the moment I'll probably go with the meade dsi and some time done the track I'll get a better ccd.

I am leaning heavily towards the meade 127 f7.5 apo at the moment, which comes with a 2in focuser.

This may still all change as I am thinking of the g11 gemini which would add another $1500 to the std g11, which would leave less for the ota.
Other than the goto system is there much differance between the 2 mount? Do I need a goto system? Is this mount overkill for this setup? - ood upgrade path thou! these are just some of the dilemas I am facing(To many, but I suppose you have all been there and will be there again too imho)

I realise I have started this thread in the wrong section, thought this was the beginners equipment section not beginners Astrophotography. So should probably start another topic in the correct section to descuss the pro's and con's of above.

The advice on the cameras was worth the mistake, and more advice greatfully accepted.

Peter, You said in your post "The beauty of the DSI2
is that you can set a star and the camera will automatically track on the star as it takes successive images (note this is not to be confused with guiding with a separate camera/scope)" How does this differ, is it because when the DSI2 is imaging, its not tracking, therefore having to make bigger movemnets when it tracks between images?

Regards
John

[pjphilli (Peter)]

Hi John

I am sure that the Meade 127mm f7.5 apo scope would be a beauty since I am very happy with my Meade 80mm f6 apo.

You are in a position when starting off to get it mostly right in the first instance. I see you are at Kinglake West which I think is about 80k from Melbourne so I guess you have a pretty dark site compared with my Sydney suburbs location. However, to do decent imaging you will need to plan for guiding if not at the start then in the medium future.

I started with a Meade 80mm f8 apo with 2in focuser which is very good for wide field use. I have this alongside a 200mm f8 Ritchey Chretien which is an excellent imaging scope.
My present range of scope focal lengths is therefore 480 and 1600mm
and I intend to get a focal reducer for the RC to give me another choice
of about 1000mm. With this range of focal lengths I can image a good range of objects with satisfactory display sizes. Also this dual scope arrangement allows me to use either scope for imaging or guiding.
Incidentally, I use a QHY5 camera for guiding (good cheap camera for guiding). You may consider starting with you DSI2 for imaging bright objects without guiding and then perhaps upgrade to say a modified
DSLR when the DSI2 will make an excellent guiding camera.

The 127mm f7.5 would have a focal length of 952mm and of course you could focal reduce to say 500mm. However, what do you intend to use for your guiding in future? In the short term however, this scope would give excellent performance with an unguided DSI2.

As far as mounts are concerned get a good one from the start otherwise
you may need to upgrade in future. Also estimate what you present and
future total loading on the mount may be and get a mount that at least
meets this but preferably with some margin over the manufacturer's maximum loading recommendations. I don't know much about mounts but
I choose the HEQ5Pro because I wanted a go-to mount, suitable for imaging use and capable of taking my total loading of 12.5Kg. The HEQ5Pros is supposed to have a max rating of 14Kg and works fine with
the above load although I did need to add an extra weight to the two provided with the scope.

Why go to? Well it certainly makes it easy to align and star find. The go-to paddle also has the facility of patching a provided cord from my astro computer into the back of the paddle (I think that most go-tos would provide this - but need to check). This permits me to control the scope from my computer star program and this greatly facilitates getting (particularly dim) objects onto my imaging camera screen. This can be quite difficult to do without a go-to and preferably program control particularly with the small DSI2 chip (a lot easier with the large DSLR chip of course). Incidentally, I use the PHD free guiding program which I regard as excellent.

Maybe you already know this but your mount will track stars in RA and in DEC when you have polar aligned. Small imperfections in the mount mechanics (such as period error of the worm/wheel) may not give sufficient stability for taking images longer than say 30sec or so.
Hence you need to also guide the scope using a separate guide scope and camera for taking long images. Even when you guide, after a long imaging session (eg I often take at least 16x6min images on dim objects such as mag9 galaxies) you may find that the separate images although fine regarding pinpoint stars may show some movement between stars on successive images over a long period due to things such as scope flexure
which guiding may not be able to overcome). Hence, when you stack the images you first have to align them. But, as I have explained, the DSI2 can subtract dark frames, align, stack images and provide a combined composite on the fly. So, it provides the facility to mark a star in the first test image to permit the DSI2 to also automatically align successive images. If you are processing off line you need to subtract dark frames from your images, align and combine them to give you your composite image. This image should have good star shapes
and a good signal to noise ratio in view of the stacking, which will allow you to adjust in a program such as Photoshop to provide a good low noise
final image presentation. For best effect you may also need to adjust composite images provided automatically by the DSI2.

In summary, think what you may want to do in the future, plan what equipment you may need and get good quality gear from the start. This way you will not be left with a lot of unsuitable gear as you proceed on your upwards journey.

Hope all this clarifies the situation.

Cheers Peter

[scagman (John)]

Hi Peter,

I am looking at getting the "Orion Awesome Autoguider Package" for guiding to start with. From the posts and reviews I have read of this, it sounds reasonable.

I hope to get a G11 mount as this should future proof me for a while, but sill not sure if I will get the gemini or not. I see the benifits of a "goto" drive but its quite a bit extra

Reading the specs on the G11 it sounds like I can guide the mount via software from a pc/laptop. Prob slower than std goto but should do I think.

John

[marki]

John for AP buy the best mount you can afford, the telescopes are secondary when on a budget. A million dollar telescope on a 2 dollar mount will produce rubbish but reverse the equation and you may get something useful. For DSO work you will need to sort out some guiding options and there are many out there and they all have good and bad points. The easiest way is to mount a guide scope but unless you do this correctly (e.g. rock solid) you will suffer from flexure = oval stars. Off axis guiders are a good option to prevent this but are a pain to use as it can be a problem finding a suitable guide star, setting it up to focus exactly the same as the imaging camera etc etc. None of this is easy and even small changes to equipment can lead to major learning curves as well as an element of frustration. I think the DSI is a good first camera as it is easy to use and makes a great guider when you move on. A fast refractor is the way to go when starting out as they are far more forgiving of guide errors. The little meade 80 is pretty sweet at F6 as are the synta scopes and are not overly expensive. The slower cats (meades, celestron, GSO etc) will challenge your patience until you get the hang of things so are best left alone. I think you are on the right track with the G11 (goto gives you a lot more options) and this will give you lots of room to grow. I would suggest a reasonable quality 80 - 100mm refractor with a focal ratio no greater than F6.5, your orion guide package would be suitable and a small camera like the DSI. When you have more funds move on to a bigger camera.

Cheers

Mark

[scagman (John)]

Thanks Mark,

I've come to the conclusion that the G11 w/G2 will be my choice.
THis will give me a good strong platform for many years to come.
The more I read of the experiances of others on here , tells me that nothing about this hobby is easy, with big, steep, learning curves at every step. Could be very off-putting to the frail at heart. But if you keep reading you also realise that those that are prepared to put on the mountain climbing gear, that you can get up the hills, learning and having a lot of fun on the way.

john

[marki]

Originally Posted by scagman

Thanks Mark,

I've come to the conclusion that the G11 w/G2 will be my choice.
THis will give me a good strong platform for many years to come.
The more I read of the experiances of others on here , tells me that nothing about this hobby is easy, with big, steep, learning curves at every step. Could be very off-putting to the frail at heart. But if you keep reading you also realise that those that are prepared to put on the mountain climbing gear, that you can get up the hills, learning and having a lot of fun on the way.

john

Yes John it is a lot of fun if you are technically minded.

Mark

[pjphilli (Peter)]

Hi John

Astroimaging ain't easy but who would want it to be? I have had several
hobbies but after being in this one for more than 15 years it still challenges and intrigues me. The main thing is to HAVE FUN!

Cheers Peter