Possible new planet discovered in our Solar System!

[AG Hybrid (Adrian)]

Thanks to data collect from NASA's WISE telescope, a possible new planet 4 times the mass of Jupiter is possibly lurking out in the Oort Cloud located some 375x further out then Pluto.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...-2213119.html#

and

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_823028.html

Interesting stuff if it turns out to be real aye?

[gary]

Hi Adrian,

Thanks for the head's up and links to the articles.

A debate has already begun -
http://www.space.com/10863-mystery-p...he-debate.html

[renormalised (Carl)]

The only way to find out is to analyse the data from WISE. Then, even if the signal is ambiguous, go looking for it. Most astronomers won't bother, but some might. This is where instruments of 16" and larger, with very IR sensitive cameras will come to the fore. This is precisely why unis should spend more money on building these instruments. Also, those amateurs that can afford equipment like this should pitch in as well.

[Ric]

Either way I think this one will be the source of much debate in astronomy circles for a long time to come.

[TrevorW]

Sounds a lot like the mysterious Planet X to me

what would the albedo of a planet 4 times the size of Jupiter be even if it was 1500 billion kilometers away

also would it be massive enough to be held in an orbit under the influence of the suns gravity as indicated in the article

also would it be massive enough as a gas giant to be turned into a star, now that would be interesting

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by TrevorW

Sounds a lot like the mysterious Planet X to me

what would the albido of a planet 4 times the size of Jupiter be even if it was 1500 billion kilometers away

also would it be massive enough to be held in an orbit under the influence of the suns gravity as indicated in the article

also would it be massive enough as a gas giant to be turned into a star, now that would be interesting

I have a Bet with a scientist friend, made about ten years ago, that within the next twenty years from that time that they would find the Sun has a companion out there somewhere, I may be getting close to getting my money

[ngcles]

Hi All,

Well I'll go on record now as being extremely surprised if such a body exists (even out at 15,000 A.U) -- in fact I'd be confident enough to place a very large wager against it.

Such a body (assuming it to be a gas-giant at about 4x the mass of Jupiter), would still be about the size of Jupiter (just a lot denser). At optical wavelengths it would be extremely faint but still reasonably bright at infra-red, microwave and radio wavelengths from gravitational contraction and heat left over when it formed 4.6 gyrs ago.

Plus, assuming it to be a gas-giant like Jupiter and of similar composition, it would have a massive and powerful magnetosphere. It is almost impossible to conceive that a moving (orbiting) source at these wavelengths would not have been picked up in the dozens upon dozens of sky-surveys at these various wavelengths conducted over the last 40-odd years.

The evidence upon which its existence is speculated is very tenuous indeed. Maybe I'll be surprised -- who knows? But, I doubt it.


Best,

Les D

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

It is interesting that the clues are altered trajectories of long term comets. I wonder how many bodies did not come back. You expect some long term comets would be close enough to such a massive object to be swallowed up.

So of the 100% comets discovered how many never came back at all. You would think roughly <1% or thereabouts would just disappear of the radar all together especially when the finding show as much as 20% altered trajectories.

I did a quick calculation non scientific determin the viewing size would be about 625 time smaller than current Jupiter so it maybe possible for high end amateur scopes to see about 1 pixel of movement. Any addition to this would be good.

[Screwdriverone (Chris)]

Hmmm,

Isnt theory tied to an object being larger than Jupiter belonging to the class of "brown dwarfs"? I am sure that AS&T articles have been describing the exoplanet candidates being detected as Super Earths and Super Jupiters with the latter almost being able to be classified as being of the Brown Dwarf class and VERY hard to detect based on their visual dimness?

Maybe this is what is lurking out there beyond visible reach? Certainly with the mass of 4 x Jupiter, it would be getting close to being a Massive object with the characteristics of a brown dwarf. Something which theory predicts but practice is yet to pin down....

Thats where my $10 would be placed, if evidence or proof comes from the "speculation" included in that story.....

Cheers

Chris

[renormalised (Carl)]

Brown dwarfs are quite common and have been physically seen....they're not a theoretical object. 13 Jupiter masses is the cutoff point.

They've also seen quite a few planets up around the 4 x Jupiter mass as well.

Actually, where the problems lie is in telling the difference between extra-large planets (9-13 Jupiter masses) and the smallest BD's. Their internal structures are very similar. It's most likely a continuum between these large planets and the smallest brown dwarfs.

[leinad (Dan)]

Throwing a question out there?.. intrigued.; and questioning it's possibilities..

Does that mean if they look at the orbits of long period comets which they theorize are affected by this object; that they can theorize this object's orbit, over it's supposed 1.8 so million years of orbit of the Sun?

Get some supercomputer time?

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

I think there is a limit until it is visually observed either by visual or radio. I could image that if it is a Jupiter sized planet it would have similar radio signal to our Jupiter.

I would be scanning the skies for that. Although it would have to be done in space as the Jupiter frequency is affected by atmosphere <38MHz

[renormalised (Carl)]

If it has the internal physical makeup to generate a large, powerful magnetic field, then normally it would be easily detectable by its interaction with the solar wind, but out where it is, there is no solar wind. That ends back at the heliopause, which is only a couple of hundred AU wide at the most. Any interactions would be from it being immersed in the ISM and that would make for a very weak signal.

The only other ways it could generate a signal is via internal processes or via interactions with a suitable satellite (like Io with Jupiter).

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

If it is within the Oort cloud, it will have multitude of satellites to play with.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by mswhin63

If it is within the Oort cloud, it will have multitude of satellites to play with.

Wrong sort, and they're not as close together as you might think...the average distance between each object is many millions of kms. The only thing that putative planet will do over time is gravitationally scatter a few of the objects.

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

I never heard or seen the scientific result on the radio signals from Jupiter so I should not assume to much at this stage. I always thought the heavy gravity which causes most of the storms would be the source of the radio signal, the moons would play an affect on the mixing of the storms possibly.

It seems common knowledge in education podcasts that anything high gravity planet would produce high energy storm activity.

I hope after my operation I will be purchasing a prof receiver with broadband spectrum analyser and waterfall meter. I will one day have a look (or hear and see) at the Sun and Jupiter as an initial project.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Originally Posted by mswhin63

I never heard or seen the scientific result on the radio signals from Jupiter so I should not assume to much at this stage. I always thought the heavy gravity which causes most of the storms would be the source of the radio signal, the moons would play an affect on the mixing of the storms possibly.

It seems common knowledge in education podcasts that anything high gravity planet would produce high energy storm activity.

I hope after my operation I will be purchasing a prof receiver with broadband spectrum analyser and waterfall meter. I will one day have a look (or hear and see) at the Sun and Jupiter as an initial project.

There is a heap of literature on radio signals from Jupiter and their origins. Just about every introductory textbook on radioastronomy and/or astrophysics will mention them.

It has nothing to do with the gravity of the planet. It's due to the interaction of the magnetosphere of the planet with the solar winds and the upper atmosphere of the planet. It is also due to the interactions between Jupiter and some of its moons...namely Io and its emission of sodium (and other) ions.

Here's a relatively simple overview of Jupiter and its radio emissions...

http://www.spacetoday.org/SolSys/Jup...iterRadio.html

[mswhin63 (Malcolm)]

Thanks for the link, it is a shame that there are so many missing links on that site as well as missing links from links that still work. But well laid out explanation. That Plasma topic keeps popping up :smile:

It seems that Jupiter has taken a back seat in radio. It is still an option just in case there are moons, but realise now that it may be a waste of resources. (What is considered a waste I suppose)

There will be more information and when I am ready will locate them, but I am considering steering clear of a lot of information until I carry out test experiments with receiving techniques, antenna design and general university education documents. Should hopefully get that this semester.

[renormalised (Carl)]

What course are you doing??

[higginsdj]

Unless there is something wrong with my math, I calculate that this thing would be at Mag 13.9! H = -8.2 mag and from this m = 13.9 mag

using:

D = 1329/pv^(1/2) * 10^(-0.2*H)

I used Jupiters Diameter and albedo (80000km and 0.52)

m = H + 2.5 Log10(d1^2*d2^2/(px*d3^4))

d1 = distance Sun to body (=15,000)
d2 = distance Observer to body (=15,000)
d3 = distance observer to Sun (=1)
px = 2/3 = the phase integral (ie same as the full moon)

Cheers